Vortex 1.0 Release

[Guest deleted34304850]

its just the usual.

 

an announcement gets made, and this triggers the angry mob to pick up their pitchforks and denounce vortex as some sort of witchcraft. Last month it was the API. Next time it will be mod packs, or the site redesign. Anything and everything to give the dullest people the loudest voice for a couple of seconds.

[Zanderat]

In response to post #72318958.

1ae0bfb8 wrote:

its just the usual.

 

an announcement gets made, and this triggers the angry mob to pick up their pitchforks and denounce vortex as some sort of witchcraft. Last month it was the API. Next time it will be mod packs, or the site redesign. Anything and everything to give the dullest people the loudest voice for a couple of seconds.

^^^^^This.

[Deleted59475776User]

Old Wrye Bash user and manual order addict (no LOOT here) is passing.

Congratulation to Vortex users for the new release though.

Edited August 5, 2019 by Guest

[Dark0ne]

In response to post #72306943. #72307193, #72316718, #72316773, #72318533 are all replies on the same post.

1ae0bfb8 wrote:

 

In response to post #72305858.

1ae0bfb8 wrote:

its a cut/paste job from a post on the UFO4P forums.

In response to post #72260498. #72302373 is also a reply to the same post.

Sonja wrote: I don't understand why there needs to be an argument over it either.
For me, it's quite simple; I don't use Vortex, and I never will. I'm still sticking with the tried and true... I install with Wrye Bash, do an initial pass with LOOT, and then tweak manually in Wrye Bash... wonderful, simple and intuitive. In all the years I've used it, Wrye Mash/Bash/Smash/Flash has never failed me.
Even the LOOT devs recommend AGAINST using the system the way Vortex does. LOOT should be regarded like a spelling, or grammar, checker.. It's great for a first pass to fix the most egregious problems, but it STILL needs a human hand..... One that has actually learnt how to build a load order, rather than relying on automation.
I've actually tried Vortex a couple of times now (and having modded Beth games since Morrowind, I KNOW what I'm doing by this point).... Just, no thanks.
No doubt Vortex is great for some people, but I'm not one of them. I want full control over the install process, and that includes being able to easily drag and drop mods.HadToRegister wrote:

I don't understand why there needs to be an argument over manual load order sorting, it's a simple feature why not just add it for those that want it, make it an option we can activate in the settings if you dont want it on by default

and dont give me that "new way of thinking" or "accept change", neither of those are an acceptable excuse to ignore a not insignificant portion of your user base

Another Argumentum ad Populum.

I too don't understand why there needs to be an argument about manual load order sorting, if you'd take the time to learn how to set rules in Vortex, or just drag and drop one plugin before or after another, you'd see how easy and quick it is.
People are just arguing FOR Manual Load Order Sorting just "Because"

Personally I don't understand why people want to keep an outdated and archaic way of doing your load order, when manual sorting allows you to mess it up fabulously.

I'd be interested in knowing the source of this, and where it is. Please can you provide it?

Even the LOOT devs recommend AGAINST using the system the way Vortex does

Amazing to see that Sonja had so many issues with vortex but never opened a single ticket. however, is fully prepared to shitpost about it. very odd behaviour.

its a cut/paste job from a post on the UFO4P forums.

Do you have the source of that? I'd like to know where it comes from so I can better understand why it's being mentioned.

try this;

 

https://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/3502925-the-unofficial-fallout-4-patch/page-702&do=findComment&comment=72201488

 

if that doesn't work, it's post #7014.

Dark0ne wrote: Ah, that, and the subsequent posts, definitely put some context to it. Though it still provides no reference to where the LOOT devs claimed it shouldn't be used in this manner. Classic case of "Chinese whispers" here. Thanks!

Arthmoor wrote: Why not just go ask them? It's not like they hide from their opinions on these matters. Especially when they've been asked about it, ans answered it, on their own Discord server for all to see.

They don't even claim LOOT itself is sufficient for managing things entirely, even within the context of setting up rules. They fully acknowledge the place manual load order sorting has in the community and they've never once tried to claim LOOT or anything relying on it can make that a thing of the past.

Arthmoor wrote: Why not just go ask them? It's not like they hide from their opinions on these matters. Especially when they've been asked about it, ans answered it, on their own Discord server for all to see.

They don't even claim LOOT itself is sufficient for managing things entirely, even within the context of setting up rules. They fully acknowledge the place manual load order sorting has in the community and they've never once tried to claim LOOT or anything relying on it can make that a thing of the past.

Zanderat wrote: The funny part is that manual ordering is entirely doable in Vortex. You can even, gasp, drag and drop. I am not not even sure what the argument is about.

they've never once tried to claim LOOT or anything relying on it can make that a thing of the past.

And I don't think anyone working on Vortex has claimed they said that either? That was never even mentioned as far as the LOOT devs are concerned.

Why not just go ask them?

We did a year ago when you first made this claim, and just to completely confirm, I did again just now, as they are part of our Nexus Mods Dev Discord for the API. So yes, I can confirm, the LOOT devs do not have a problem with the way Vortex has implemented LOOT, nor have they said the Vortex system is not adequate. On top of that, it is clear that they (and probably you) do not know that the very few shortcomings that LOOT management has that have yet to been fixed (i.e. an example given by the LOOT devs, a plugin that absolutely has to load after another plugin, something LOOT cannot currently do) can be done in Vortex. I've obviously corrected them on that now.

While LOOT management is a large part of Vortex (because the vast majority of modders do not need anything more than it), for the very niche instances where LOOT cannot do something which means the LOOT devs cannot recommend it as a total replacement for manual load ordering - Vortex can. Edited August 5, 2019 by Dark0ne

[ravernware]

I used to be a Votex Hater. Seriously. Or was it that I had become so comfortable with NMM? 3 days ago I made my third attempt over a few months period to move FO4 from NMM to Vortex as NMM was seriously showing its age. Well after some mega frustrations (I just could not migrate all my d/l'd mods from NMM into Vortex) and a few F-bombs I finally got it. I mean I REALLY got it. I feel I now understand how vortex works. Frankly, imo it works great. I basically created a new folder for my FO4 mods, and set that as the Vortex mod install folder. Then installed each one manually. It took a while to load 204 mods into vortex. Then set up the load rules to clear the mod conflicts Vortex id'd. But once I got the hang of it, it became relatively simple. Created an F4SE game profile and then set up the correct file paths for the tools (Loot, FOEDIT, F4SE, Bodyslide, etc.).

So.. now I find I am a Vortex lover. Yes. I now love Vortex. I used to blame the extreme slow loading times of FO4 had before on Win10. But now that I am running Vortex I realize it was old man NMM. FO4 starts up super fast now (under 60 sec) in F4SE mod and 204 active mods. Runs way more stable too. So all that said, I really recommend to my fellow NMM holdouts to take the plunge, work through the frustrations, READ the knowledge base, and migrate to Vortex. I am sooo glad I finally did.

Huge happy face!! :)

Edited August 5, 2019 by ravernware

[AugustaCalidia]

In response to post #72306943. #72307193, #72316718, #72316773, #72318533, #72320893 are all replies on the same post.

1ae0bfb8 wrote:

 

In response to post #72305858.

1ae0bfb8 wrote:

its a cut/paste job from a post on the UFO4P forums.

In response to post #72260498. #72302373 is also a reply to the same post.

Sonja wrote: I don't understand why there needs to be an argument over it either.
For me, it's quite simple; I don't use Vortex, and I never will. I'm still sticking with the tried and true... I install with Wrye Bash, do an initial pass with LOOT, and then tweak manually in Wrye Bash... wonderful, simple and intuitive. In all the years I've used it, Wrye Mash/Bash/Smash/Flash has never failed me.
Even the LOOT devs recommend AGAINST using the system the way Vortex does. LOOT should be regarded like a spelling, or grammar, checker.. It's great for a first pass to fix the most egregious problems, but it STILL needs a human hand..... One that has actually learnt how to build a load order, rather than relying on automation.
I've actually tried Vortex a couple of times now (and having modded Beth games since Morrowind, I KNOW what I'm doing by this point).... Just, no thanks.
No doubt Vortex is great for some people, but I'm not one of them. I want full control over the install process, and that includes being able to easily drag and drop mods.HadToRegister wrote:

I don't understand why there needs to be an argument over manual load order sorting, it's a simple feature why not just add it for those that want it, make it an option we can activate in the settings if you dont want it on by default

and dont give me that "new way of thinking" or "accept change", neither of those are an acceptable excuse to ignore a not insignificant portion of your user base

Another Argumentum ad Populum.

I too don't understand why there needs to be an argument about manual load order sorting, if you'd take the time to learn how to set rules in Vortex, or just drag and drop one plugin before or after another, you'd see how easy and quick it is.
People are just arguing FOR Manual Load Order Sorting just "Because"

Personally I don't understand why people want to keep an outdated and archaic way of doing your load order, when manual sorting allows you to mess it up fabulously.

I'd be interested in knowing the source of this, and where it is. Please can you provide it?

Even the LOOT devs recommend AGAINST using the system the way Vortex does

Amazing to see that Sonja had so many issues with vortex but never opened a single ticket. however, is fully prepared to shitpost about it. very odd behaviour.

its a cut/paste job from a post on the UFO4P forums.

Do you have the source of that? I'd like to know where it comes from so I can better understand why it's being mentioned.

try this;

 

https://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/3502925-the-unofficial-fallout-4-patch/page-702&do=findComment&comment=72201488

 

if that doesn't work, it's post #7014.

Dark0ne wrote: Ah, that, and the subsequent posts, definitely put some context to it. Though it still provides no reference to where the LOOT devs claimed it shouldn't be used in this manner. Classic case of "Chinese whispers" here. Thanks!

Arthmoor wrote: Why not just go ask them? It's not like they hide from their opinions on these matters. Especially when they've been asked about it, ans answered it, on their own Discord server for all to see.

They don't even claim LOOT itself is sufficient for managing things entirely, even within the context of setting up rules. They fully acknowledge the place manual load order sorting has in the community and they've never once tried to claim LOOT or anything relying on it can make that a thing of the past.

Arthmoor wrote: Why not just go ask them? It's not like they hide from their opinions on these matters. Especially when they've been asked about it, ans answered it, on their own Discord server for all to see.

They don't even claim LOOT itself is sufficient for managing things entirely, even within the context of setting up rules. They fully acknowledge the place manual load order sorting has in the community and they've never once tried to claim LOOT or anything relying on it can make that a thing of the past.

Zanderat wrote: The funny part is that manual ordering is entirely doable in Vortex. You can even, gasp, drag and drop. I am not not even sure what the argument is about.

Dark0ne wrote:

they've never once tried to claim LOOT or anything relying on it can make that a thing of the past.

And I don't think anyone working on Vortex has claimed they said that either? That was never even mentioned as far as the LOOT devs are concerned.

Why not just go ask them?

We did a year ago when you first made this claim, and just to completely confirm, I did again just now, as they are part of our Nexus Mods Dev Discord for the API. So yes, I can confirm, the LOOT devs do not have a problem with the way Vortex has implemented LOOT, nor have they said the Vortex system is not adequate. On top of that, it is clear that they (and probably you) do not know that the very few shortcomings that LOOT management has that have yet to been fixed (i.e. an example given by the LOOT devs, a plugin that absolutely has to load after another plugin, something LOOT cannot currently do) can be done in Vortex. I've obviously corrected them on that now.

While LOOT management is a large part of Vortex (because the vast majority of modders do not need anything more than it), for the very niche instances where LOOT cannot do something which means the LOOT devs cannot recommend it as a total replacement for manual load ordering - Vortex can.

Of course manual load ordering will never be a thing of the past. That's because manual load ordering, along with LOOT, are integral features of Vortex, the mod manager of the future.

Now the "drag and drop" fundamentalists would have you believe that Vortex has no manual load ordering capabilities. They have co-opted the term "manual" for themselves and preached that only drag and drop is the one true manual way to a perfect load order. Therefore, according to this dogma, Vortex could not possibly have manual load ordering capabilities. Many even say that Vortex, lacking this capability, is not worthy to be called a "mod manager."

However, this restrictive use of the term "manual" flies in the face of common usage. The term in the present context means "worked or done by hand and not by machine" (Merriam-Webster). When a drag and drop devotee moves a plugin up or down a plugin list, that is a user initiated, non-automated act properly called "manual." Likewise, when a Vortex user intervenes in a load order by creating a rule governing plugin behavior, that is just as much a user initiated, non-automated act properly called "manual" in the common meaning of the term.

Yes, Vortex is highly automated. However, Vortex also has a number of "manual override" switches precisely because LOOT is not adequate to the task of producing the perfect load order. Not only do these switches mean that manual load ordering capabilities are built into Vortex, but it also means that the Vortex user has ultimate control over load order. To say otherwise is simply to ignore the facts.

[Arthmoor]

In response to post #72306943. #72307193, #72316718, #72316773, #72318533, #72320893, #72324058 are all replies on the same post.

1ae0bfb8 wrote:

 

In response to post #72305858.

1ae0bfb8 wrote:

its a cut/paste job from a post on the UFO4P forums.

In response to post #72260498. #72302373 is also a reply to the same post.

Sonja wrote: I don't understand why there needs to be an argument over it either.
For me, it's quite simple; I don't use Vortex, and I never will. I'm still sticking with the tried and true... I install with Wrye Bash, do an initial pass with LOOT, and then tweak manually in Wrye Bash... wonderful, simple and intuitive. In all the years I've used it, Wrye Mash/Bash/Smash/Flash has never failed me.
Even the LOOT devs recommend AGAINST using the system the way Vortex does. LOOT should be regarded like a spelling, or grammar, checker.. It's great for a first pass to fix the most egregious problems, but it STILL needs a human hand..... One that has actually learnt how to build a load order, rather than relying on automation.
I've actually tried Vortex a couple of times now (and having modded Beth games since Morrowind, I KNOW what I'm doing by this point).... Just, no thanks.
No doubt Vortex is great for some people, but I'm not one of them. I want full control over the install process, and that includes being able to easily drag and drop mods.HadToRegister wrote:

I don't understand why there needs to be an argument over manual load order sorting, it's a simple feature why not just add it for those that want it, make it an option we can activate in the settings if you dont want it on by default

and dont give me that "new way of thinking" or "accept change", neither of those are an acceptable excuse to ignore a not insignificant portion of your user base

Another Argumentum ad Populum.

I too don't understand why there needs to be an argument about manual load order sorting, if you'd take the time to learn how to set rules in Vortex, or just drag and drop one plugin before or after another, you'd see how easy and quick it is.
People are just arguing FOR Manual Load Order Sorting just "Because"

Personally I don't understand why people want to keep an outdated and archaic way of doing your load order, when manual sorting allows you to mess it up fabulously.

I'd be interested in knowing the source of this, and where it is. Please can you provide it?

Even the LOOT devs recommend AGAINST using the system the way Vortex does

Amazing to see that Sonja had so many issues with vortex but never opened a single ticket. however, is fully prepared to shitpost about it. very odd behaviour.

its a cut/paste job from a post on the UFO4P forums.

Do you have the source of that? I'd like to know where it comes from so I can better understand why it's being mentioned.

try this;

 

https://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/3502925-the-unofficial-fallout-4-patch/page-702&do=findComment&comment=72201488

 

if that doesn't work, it's post #7014.

Dark0ne wrote: Ah, that, and the subsequent posts, definitely put some context to it. Though it still provides no reference to where the LOOT devs claimed it shouldn't be used in this manner. Classic case of "Chinese whispers" here. Thanks!

Arthmoor wrote: Why not just go ask them? It's not like they hide from their opinions on these matters. Especially when they've been asked about it, ans answered it, on their own Discord server for all to see.

They don't even claim LOOT itself is sufficient for managing things entirely, even within the context of setting up rules. They fully acknowledge the place manual load order sorting has in the community and they've never once tried to claim LOOT or anything relying on it can make that a thing of the past.

Arthmoor wrote: Why not just go ask them? It's not like they hide from their opinions on these matters. Especially when they've been asked about it, ans answered it, on their own Discord server for all to see.

They don't even claim LOOT itself is sufficient for managing things entirely, even within the context of setting up rules. They fully acknowledge the place manual load order sorting has in the community and they've never once tried to claim LOOT or anything relying on it can make that a thing of the past.

Zanderat wrote: The funny part is that manual ordering is entirely doable in Vortex. You can even, gasp, drag and drop. I am not not even sure what the argument is about.

Dark0ne wrote:

they've never once tried to claim LOOT or anything relying on it can make that a thing of the past.

And I don't think anyone working on Vortex has claimed they said that either? That was never even mentioned as far as the LOOT devs are concerned.

Why not just go ask them?

We did a year ago when you first made this claim, and just to completely confirm, I did again just now, as they are part of our Nexus Mods Dev Discord for the API. So yes, I can confirm, the LOOT devs do not have a problem with the way Vortex has implemented LOOT, nor have they said the Vortex system is not adequate. On top of that, it is clear that they (and probably you) do not know that the very few shortcomings that LOOT management has that have yet to been fixed (i.e. an example given by the LOOT devs, a plugin that absolutely has to load after another plugin, something LOOT cannot currently do) can be done in Vortex. I've obviously corrected them on that now.

While LOOT management is a large part of Vortex (because the vast majority of modders do not need anything more than it), for the very niche instances where LOOT cannot do something which means the LOOT devs cannot recommend it as a total replacement for manual load ordering - Vortex can.

Augusta Calidia wrote: Of course manual load ordering will never be a thing of the past. That's because manual load ordering, along with LOOT, are integral features of Vortex, the mod manager of the future.

Now the "drag and drop" fundamentalists would have you believe that Vortex has no manual load ordering capabilities. They have co-opted the term "manual" for themselves and preached that only drag and drop is the one true manual way to a perfect load order. Therefore, according to this dogma, Vortex could not possibly have manual load ordering capabilities. Many even say that Vortex, lacking this capability, is not worthy to be called a "mod manager."

However, this restrictive use of the term "manual" flies in the face of common usage. The term in the present context means "worked or done by hand and not by machine" (Merriam-Webster). When a drag and drop devotee moves a plugin up or down a plugin list, that is a user initiated, non-automated act properly called "manual." Likewise, when a Vortex user intervenes in a load order by creating a rule governing plugin behavior, that is just as much a user initiated, non-automated act properly called "manual" in the common meaning of the term.

Yes, Vortex is highly automated. However, Vortex also has a number of "manual override" switches precisely because LOOT is not adequate to the task of producing the perfect load order. Not only do these switches mean that manual load ordering capabilities are built into Vortex, but it also means that the Vortex user has ultimate control over load order. To say otherwise is simply to ignore the facts.

So yes, I can confirm, the LOOT devs do not have a problem with the way Vortex has implemented LOOT, nor have they said the Vortex system is not adequate.

Well then they appear to be giving out information that's not consistent depending on who is asking the questions. Or maybe HOW the question is asked. Any time I've ever seen them comment on the issue, they will flat out tell you LOOT and anything based on LOOT is not the END of load order, it is the beginning, and they've further said that nothing Vortex is doing fundamentally changes that. So you can claim that "manual sorting" is a thing, but your own developer has crusaded against even considering this as an option for more than a year, which is why I commented on it back then to begin with. His publicly stated position on the matter is still there in your own forums for all to see. To sum it up though it amounts to "never going to happen".

... Vortex, the mod manager of the future.

Just... stop already. You sound like an infomercial when you do this. Especially when the statement directly contradicts what Tannin himself has said repeatedly. This isn't a religious agenda or some kind of dogma, it's the words from YOUR OWN DEVELOPER who said point blank that manual load ordering will never be a feature in Vortex.

If he's changed his mind on this then great, problem solved and we can all move on with life and be happy. Something tells me this isn't the case though since you guys are insisting on dancing around the issue instead of just answering it with clear, concise language.

So no, it is not those of us who know what the terminology has meant for the last 15 years co-opting anything. It's you guys who are trying to redefine the term as though you invented the concept. Setting up a rule to teach the AI in Vortex how to parse your intent is NOT the definition of a manual process.

Every user of MO2, Wrye Bash, NMM, OBMM, and every single other less well known mod manager knows what the term "manual load order" means and it does not fit what Vortex is trying to change that to mean. Plenty of people have tried to point this out and have gone so far as to wonder WTF Tannin was thinking when he explicitly said it would never be made a feature. This is why you have thousands of people who do not consider Vortex to be an actual mod manager but instead a wrapper for LOOT services. Edited August 6, 2019 by Arthmoor

[Arthmoor]

In response to post #72145658. #72145963 is also a reply to the same post.

1ae0bfb8 wrote:

 

In response to post #72143393. #72144508, #72144708, #72144743, #72144783, #72144978 are all replies on the same post.

Elianora wrote: Using Vortex to install mods and I love it, but I still use NMM to sort my load orders because Vortex doesn't support drag and dropping to manually organise plugins :D

Maybe someone can make an extension to Vortex that allows manual load order sorting. :thinkemoji:

ScarletStreak wrote: I second this.
We could only hope! It could definitely be an optional feature.

CaptainKibosh wrote: I've wondered about the philosophy behind Vortex's system for ordering mods. As a mod dabbler (at least as far as I can personally gauge myself on the spectrum of mod users' deftness with various modding tools), I actually find the Vortex's system for ordering mods to be quite helpful, but I can also see how the lack of more manual control of the load order could be frustrating for more veteran modders (and even I sometimes wish "drag and drop" were an option).

In my case, I was never really able to get long term stable game play in Skyrim through NMM (dabbled, there's that word again, briefly with MO also with little success), but I WAS able to do so with Vortex. From my perspective and limited skill set when it comes to modding, Vortex was just more user friendly and required far less researching text and video tutorials on the Internet compared to NMM and MO. This is not to disparage the other mod organizers, but Vortex worked well for my specific needs.

I assume the method for organizing the mod order--using a kind of Boolean logic I guess? (not sure that's the right term, I'm not a mathematician or programmer)--where load order is determined by a relativistic approach, e.g., Mod A must load before Mod B but must load after Mod C--is a means of keeping one's playthrough stable by making sure one can't muck up the load order too badly by potentially arbitrary or even haphazard placement. I'm personally grateful for that structural rigor since it kept me from making mistakes in my load order, but I can see how it would be more frustrating for people with more expertise than me and who'd want to be able to manipulate their load order with a more direct, hands-on approach. Although I do wonder if manipulating load order manually would even be possible with this "Boolean logic" system in place? Again, I'm not a programmer, but if someone has an answer that this layperson can understand, I'd love to hear it!

Anyway, heaps o' thanks to the team behind developing Vortex, you guys helped me create my first (relatively) stable playthrough on Skyrim SE! I'm constantly amazed by the creativity and passion that the modding community is able to put forth on a daily basis. Huzzah for transitioning out of beta!

wolfgrimdark wrote: EDIT: Nexus Dupe issue

wolfgrimdark wrote: I third this. I have gotten very good with using Vortex (well for me at least) and have solved all my issues except easy mod sorting on load order. Yes Vortex does let you customize this but it certainly isn't as nice as NMM drop and go. You can drag and drop but it is only relative to other specific mods versus overall order. So in V I made a custom group "mods to load last" and added 7 mods to it. Those 7 then load after all others. Then within that group I manually moved each of the 7 to load in certain order by some careful drag and drop and linking up. Again you can do it but not as nice as NMM.

Not really a complaint as I have everything running fine in Vortex for 3 games now ... and when I get my new PC in a few weeks I will finally move Skyrim over to it as well.

BigBizkit wrote: This is a point that is frequently brought up which is why we have written up an in-depth answer to it. The reasons behind us opting for automated load order sorting in combination with custom rules, over the traditional drag and drop system are outlined here: https://wiki.nexusmods.com/index.php/The_Vortex_approach_to_load_order_sorting

There is generally no reason for a given plugin to load dead last in your load order. What would you do if you have several plugins that, according to load order information you have, all "need" to load last? It is always relative to other plugins.

That being said, if you can give actual examples of one or several plugins that don't work when ordered by LOOT/Vortex and absolutely need to be dragged and dropped to specific positions in the load order, please, do not hesitate to report them (e.g. via the Vortex forums).

Yup, until this feature exists I see absolutely no reason to use Vortex over any other program + LOOT. Doing that gives you full manual control as well as automated sorting, while Vortex only allows for the latter. No tangible advantage.

 

 

That's because you plainly have no idea what you're talking about.

Elianora wrote: He is a long-standing member of the community, a highly regarded mod author and generally a very active and liked member of the modding scene.

I'm pretty sure he knows what he's talking about.

He absolutely knows what he's talking about and his opinion is shared by too many people to count at this point.

[Guest deleted34304850]

then they're all wrong too. i don't care about cv's or how long they've been around in a community, that doesn't give people a pass. i could list my cv for you too, if it made a difference, it doesn't.

 

we can all split hairs on what consititutes 'manual' load ordering until we're blue in the face.

 

i know for a FACT, an undeniable FACT, based on my own usage of the tool, that I can use vortex to sort a load order, and if after i have a load order in front of me i then decide that mod x is in the wrong place, i can MANUALLY override that load order placing the mod exactly where i want it to go. i can do that in a couple of ways, each achieving the same result.

 

That, to my mind is the very definition of manual load ordering.

 

i can also, if i want, go hog on this and create a separate rule for each mod in turn, ensuring that each mod is methodically loaded in the correct group/position in the group and get the same result. of course, that would be an insane amount of overkill, but i can still do it, should i choose. again, that is manual load order management.

 

I can even use drag/drop to ensure that a mod loads after another - something everyone says cannot be done, yet there it is.

 

"oh but that drag/drop is different to the real/correct method of drag/drop" and "that manual load ordering is different to the real/correct method of manual load ordering" is the counter argument, which is facile.

At the end of the day, if your plugins are sorted to how you want them, what does anyone care about how they were sorted? surely the correct result is the aim, not the colours on the UI or the font being used, or the fact that you have to click/drag a different area on the screen than previous?

 

the point here is, as long as i've been using vortex, it's never put mod x in a place where mod x is now broken or my game is broken because vortex/loot put a mod in the wrong place. now maybe i'm a complete outlier and my mod collection is too simple, or, maybe i'm just someone who has read how to install all his mods, and follows instructions from mod authors, and understands how loot works and how ESM's cannot be loaded after an ESP, i dunno.

 

in order to try and figure out when people claim they have issues with load ordering i have asked everyone who has ranted and raved and posted absolute crap in the support forums to provide one example, just one example, of a mod placed in the wrong place.

 

do you know how many have actually been able to do it?

 

not a single one.

 

so i can only conclude from the data i have that anyone who has a serious problem using vortex that results in their games being completely and utterly destroyed, doesn't post on the support forums, but sits there in silence, doing nothing. i find that incredibly hard to believe, but there you go.

 

bottom line - you don't want to use vortex - don't use it - move on with your life and feel good about yourself knowing that you can use a different tool to successfully copy files from one directory to another, and let's you click different bits of the screen that give you complete and awesome power over your mods, and let other people do their thing.

[Dark0ne]

In response to post #72306943. #72307193, #72316718, #72316773, #72318533, #72320893, #72324058, #72328358 are all replies on the same post.

1ae0bfb8 wrote:

 

In response to post #72305858.

1ae0bfb8 wrote:

its a cut/paste job from a post on the UFO4P forums.

In response to post #72260498. #72302373 is also a reply to the same post.

Sonja wrote: I don't understand why there needs to be an argument over it either.
For me, it's quite simple; I don't use Vortex, and I never will. I'm still sticking with the tried and true... I install with Wrye Bash, do an initial pass with LOOT, and then tweak manually in Wrye Bash... wonderful, simple and intuitive. In all the years I've used it, Wrye Mash/Bash/Smash/Flash has never failed me.
Even the LOOT devs recommend AGAINST using the system the way Vortex does. LOOT should be regarded like a spelling, or grammar, checker.. It's great for a first pass to fix the most egregious problems, but it STILL needs a human hand..... One that has actually learnt how to build a load order, rather than relying on automation.
I've actually tried Vortex a couple of times now (and having modded Beth games since Morrowind, I KNOW what I'm doing by this point).... Just, no thanks.
No doubt Vortex is great for some people, but I'm not one of them. I want full control over the install process, and that includes being able to easily drag and drop mods.HadToRegister wrote:

I don't understand why there needs to be an argument over manual load order sorting, it's a simple feature why not just add it for those that want it, make it an option we can activate in the settings if you dont want it on by default

and dont give me that "new way of thinking" or "accept change", neither of those are an acceptable excuse to ignore a not insignificant portion of your user base

Another Argumentum ad Populum.

I too don't understand why there needs to be an argument about manual load order sorting, if you'd take the time to learn how to set rules in Vortex, or just drag and drop one plugin before or after another, you'd see how easy and quick it is.
People are just arguing FOR Manual Load Order Sorting just "Because"

Personally I don't understand why people want to keep an outdated and archaic way of doing your load order, when manual sorting allows you to mess it up fabulously.

I'd be interested in knowing the source of this, and where it is. Please can you provide it?

Even the LOOT devs recommend AGAINST using the system the way Vortex does

Amazing to see that Sonja had so many issues with vortex but never opened a single ticket. however, is fully prepared to shitpost about it. very odd behaviour.

its a cut/paste job from a post on the UFO4P forums.

Do you have the source of that? I'd like to know where it comes from so I can better understand why it's being mentioned.

try this;

 

https://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/3502925-the-unofficial-fallout-4-patch/page-702&do=findComment&comment=72201488

 

if that doesn't work, it's post #7014.

Dark0ne wrote: Ah, that, and the subsequent posts, definitely put some context to it. Though it still provides no reference to where the LOOT devs claimed it shouldn't be used in this manner. Classic case of "Chinese whispers" here. Thanks!

Arthmoor wrote: Why not just go ask them? It's not like they hide from their opinions on these matters. Especially when they've been asked about it, ans answered it, on their own Discord server for all to see.

They don't even claim LOOT itself is sufficient for managing things entirely, even within the context of setting up rules. They fully acknowledge the place manual load order sorting has in the community and they've never once tried to claim LOOT or anything relying on it can make that a thing of the past.

Arthmoor wrote: Why not just go ask them? It's not like they hide from their opinions on these matters. Especially when they've been asked about it, ans answered it, on their own Discord server for all to see.

They don't even claim LOOT itself is sufficient for managing things entirely, even within the context of setting up rules. They fully acknowledge the place manual load order sorting has in the community and they've never once tried to claim LOOT or anything relying on it can make that a thing of the past.

Zanderat wrote: The funny part is that manual ordering is entirely doable in Vortex. You can even, gasp, drag and drop. I am not not even sure what the argument is about.

Dark0ne wrote:

they've never once tried to claim LOOT or anything relying on it can make that a thing of the past.

And I don't think anyone working on Vortex has claimed they said that either? That was never even mentioned as far as the LOOT devs are concerned.

Why not just go ask them?

We did a year ago when you first made this claim, and just to completely confirm, I did again just now, as they are part of our Nexus Mods Dev Discord for the API. So yes, I can confirm, the LOOT devs do not have a problem with the way Vortex has implemented LOOT, nor have they said the Vortex system is not adequate. On top of that, it is clear that they (and probably you) do not know that the very few shortcomings that LOOT management has that have yet to been fixed (i.e. an example given by the LOOT devs, a plugin that absolutely has to load after another plugin, something LOOT cannot currently do) can be done in Vortex. I've obviously corrected them on that now.

While LOOT management is a large part of Vortex (because the vast majority of modders do not need anything more than it), for the very niche instances where LOOT cannot do something which means the LOOT devs cannot recommend it as a total replacement for manual load ordering - Vortex can.

Augusta Calidia wrote: Of course manual load ordering will never be a thing of the past. That's because manual load ordering, along with LOOT, are integral features of Vortex, the mod manager of the future.

Now the "drag and drop" fundamentalists would have you believe that Vortex has no manual load ordering capabilities. They have co-opted the term "manual" for themselves and preached that only drag and drop is the one true manual way to a perfect load order. Therefore, according to this dogma, Vortex could not possibly have manual load ordering capabilities. Many even say that Vortex, lacking this capability, is not worthy to be called a "mod manager."

However, this restrictive use of the term "manual" flies in the face of common usage. The term in the present context means "worked or done by hand and not by machine" (Merriam-Webster). When a drag and drop devotee moves a plugin up or down a plugin list, that is a user initiated, non-automated act properly called "manual." Likewise, when a Vortex user intervenes in a load order by creating a rule governing plugin behavior, that is just as much a user initiated, non-automated act properly called "manual" in the common meaning of the term.

Yes, Vortex is highly automated. However, Vortex also has a number of "manual override" switches precisely because LOOT is not adequate to the task of producing the perfect load order. Not only do these switches mean that manual load ordering capabilities are built into Vortex, but it also means that the Vortex user has ultimate control over load order. To say otherwise is simply to ignore the facts.

Arthmoor wrote:

So yes, I can confirm, the LOOT devs do not have a problem with the way Vortex has implemented LOOT, nor have they said the Vortex system is not adequate.

Well then they appear to be giving out information that's not consistent depending on who is asking the questions. Or maybe HOW the question is asked. Any time I've ever seen them comment on the issue, they will flat out tell you LOOT and anything based on LOOT is not the END of load order, it is the beginning, and they've further said that nothing Vortex is doing fundamentally changes that. So you can claim that "manual sorting" is a thing, but your own developer has crusaded against even considering this as an option for more than a year, which is why I commented on it back then to begin with. His publicly stated position on the matter is still there in your own forums for all to see. To sum it up though it amounts to "never going to happen".

... Vortex, the mod manager of the future.

Just... stop already. You sound like an infomercial when you do this. Especially when the statement directly contradicts what Tannin himself has said repeatedly. This isn't a religious agenda or some kind of dogma, it's the words from YOUR OWN DEVELOPER who said point blank that manual load ordering will never be a feature in Vortex.

If he's changed his mind on this then great, problem solved and we can all move on with life and be happy. Something tells me this isn't the case though since you guys are insisting on dancing around the issue instead of just answering it with clear, concise language.

So no, it is not those of us who know what the terminology has meant for the last 15 years co-opting anything. It's you guys who are trying to redefine the term as though you invented the concept. Setting up a rule to teach the AI in Vortex how to parse your intent is NOT the definition of a manual process.

Every user of MO2, Wrye Bash, NMM, OBMM, and every single other less well known mod manager knows what the term "manual load order" means and it does not fit what Vortex is trying to change that to mean. Plenty of people have tried to point this out and have gone so far as to wonder WTF Tannin was thinking when he explicitly said it would never be made a feature. This is why you have thousands of people who do not consider Vortex to be an actual mod manager but instead a wrapper for LOOT services.

Well then they appear to be giving out information that's not consistent depending on who is asking the questions.

From the brief late night chat I had it was clear that they didn't really know anything of Vortex at all, or what it was capable of doing. A recurring issue for some of the naysayers. However, knowing the LOOT devs and the professional manner in which they hold themselves, they will only speak for LOOT, and I'm pretty sure they would not speak for Vortex, which are two different things entirely.

Every user

Classic.

The rest is just a semantic argument over what constitutes manual load ordering or not. We did 90 pages of that a year ago and our opinion on the topic has not changed. Edited August 6, 2019 by Dark0ne