Vortex 1.0 Release

[Dark0ne]

In response to post #72306943. #72307193, #72316718, #72316773, #72318533, #72320893, #72324058, #72328358 are all replies on the same post.

1ae0bfb8 wrote:

 

In response to post #72305858.

1ae0bfb8 wrote:

its a cut/paste job from a post on the UFO4P forums.

In response to post #72260498. #72302373 is also a reply to the same post.

Sonja wrote: I don't understand why there needs to be an argument over it either.
For me, it's quite simple; I don't use Vortex, and I never will. I'm still sticking with the tried and true... I install with Wrye Bash, do an initial pass with LOOT, and then tweak manually in Wrye Bash... wonderful, simple and intuitive. In all the years I've used it, Wrye Mash/Bash/Smash/Flash has never failed me.
Even the LOOT devs recommend AGAINST using the system the way Vortex does. LOOT should be regarded like a spelling, or grammar, checker.. It's great for a first pass to fix the most egregious problems, but it STILL needs a human hand..... One that has actually learnt how to build a load order, rather than relying on automation.
I've actually tried Vortex a couple of times now (and having modded Beth games since Morrowind, I KNOW what I'm doing by this point).... Just, no thanks.
No doubt Vortex is great for some people, but I'm not one of them. I want full control over the install process, and that includes being able to easily drag and drop mods.HadToRegister wrote:

I don't understand why there needs to be an argument over manual load order sorting, it's a simple feature why not just add it for those that want it, make it an option we can activate in the settings if you dont want it on by default

and dont give me that "new way of thinking" or "accept change", neither of those are an acceptable excuse to ignore a not insignificant portion of your user base

Another Argumentum ad Populum.

I too don't understand why there needs to be an argument about manual load order sorting, if you'd take the time to learn how to set rules in Vortex, or just drag and drop one plugin before or after another, you'd see how easy and quick it is.
People are just arguing FOR Manual Load Order Sorting just "Because"

Personally I don't understand why people want to keep an outdated and archaic way of doing your load order, when manual sorting allows you to mess it up fabulously.

I'd be interested in knowing the source of this, and where it is. Please can you provide it?

Even the LOOT devs recommend AGAINST using the system the way Vortex does

Amazing to see that Sonja had so many issues with vortex but never opened a single ticket. however, is fully prepared to shitpost about it. very odd behaviour.

its a cut/paste job from a post on the UFO4P forums.

Do you have the source of that? I'd like to know where it comes from so I can better understand why it's being mentioned.

try this;

 

https://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/3502925-the-unofficial-fallout-4-patch/page-702&do=findComment&comment=72201488

 

if that doesn't work, it's post #7014.

Dark0ne wrote: Ah, that, and the subsequent posts, definitely put some context to it. Though it still provides no reference to where the LOOT devs claimed it shouldn't be used in this manner. Classic case of "Chinese whispers" here. Thanks!

Arthmoor wrote: Why not just go ask them? It's not like they hide from their opinions on these matters. Especially when they've been asked about it, ans answered it, on their own Discord server for all to see.

They don't even claim LOOT itself is sufficient for managing things entirely, even within the context of setting up rules. They fully acknowledge the place manual load order sorting has in the community and they've never once tried to claim LOOT or anything relying on it can make that a thing of the past.

Arthmoor wrote: Why not just go ask them? It's not like they hide from their opinions on these matters. Especially when they've been asked about it, ans answered it, on their own Discord server for all to see.

They don't even claim LOOT itself is sufficient for managing things entirely, even within the context of setting up rules. They fully acknowledge the place manual load order sorting has in the community and they've never once tried to claim LOOT or anything relying on it can make that a thing of the past.

Zanderat wrote: The funny part is that manual ordering is entirely doable in Vortex. You can even, gasp, drag and drop. I am not not even sure what the argument is about.

Dark0ne wrote:

they've never once tried to claim LOOT or anything relying on it can make that a thing of the past.

And I don't think anyone working on Vortex has claimed they said that either? That was never even mentioned as far as the LOOT devs are concerned.

Why not just go ask them?

We did a year ago when you first made this claim, and just to completely confirm, I did again just now, as they are part of our Nexus Mods Dev Discord for the API. So yes, I can confirm, the LOOT devs do not have a problem with the way Vortex has implemented LOOT, nor have they said the Vortex system is not adequate. On top of that, it is clear that they (and probably you) do not know that the very few shortcomings that LOOT management has that have yet to been fixed (i.e. an example given by the LOOT devs, a plugin that absolutely has to load after another plugin, something LOOT cannot currently do) can be done in Vortex. I've obviously corrected them on that now.

While LOOT management is a large part of Vortex (because the vast majority of modders do not need anything more than it), for the very niche instances where LOOT cannot do something which means the LOOT devs cannot recommend it as a total replacement for manual load ordering - Vortex can.

Augusta Calidia wrote: Of course manual load ordering will never be a thing of the past. That's because manual load ordering, along with LOOT, are integral features of Vortex, the mod manager of the future.

Now the "drag and drop" fundamentalists would have you believe that Vortex has no manual load ordering capabilities. They have co-opted the term "manual" for themselves and preached that only drag and drop is the one true manual way to a perfect load order. Therefore, according to this dogma, Vortex could not possibly have manual load ordering capabilities. Many even say that Vortex, lacking this capability, is not worthy to be called a "mod manager."

However, this restrictive use of the term "manual" flies in the face of common usage. The term in the present context means "worked or done by hand and not by machine" (Merriam-Webster). When a drag and drop devotee moves a plugin up or down a plugin list, that is a user initiated, non-automated act properly called "manual." Likewise, when a Vortex user intervenes in a load order by creating a rule governing plugin behavior, that is just as much a user initiated, non-automated act properly called "manual" in the common meaning of the term.

Yes, Vortex is highly automated. However, Vortex also has a number of "manual override" switches precisely because LOOT is not adequate to the task of producing the perfect load order. Not only do these switches mean that manual load ordering capabilities are built into Vortex, but it also means that the Vortex user has ultimate control over load order. To say otherwise is simply to ignore the facts.

Arthmoor wrote:

So yes, I can confirm, the LOOT devs do not have a problem with the way Vortex has implemented LOOT, nor have they said the Vortex system is not adequate.

Well then they appear to be giving out information that's not consistent depending on who is asking the questions. Or maybe HOW the question is asked. Any time I've ever seen them comment on the issue, they will flat out tell you LOOT and anything based on LOOT is not the END of load order, it is the beginning, and they've further said that nothing Vortex is doing fundamentally changes that. So you can claim that "manual sorting" is a thing, but your own developer has crusaded against even considering this as an option for more than a year, which is why I commented on it back then to begin with. His publicly stated position on the matter is still there in your own forums for all to see. To sum it up though it amounts to "never going to happen".

... Vortex, the mod manager of the future.

Just... stop already. You sound like an infomercial when you do this. Especially when the statement directly contradicts what Tannin himself has said repeatedly. This isn't a religious agenda or some kind of dogma, it's the words from YOUR OWN DEVELOPER who said point blank that manual load ordering will never be a feature in Vortex.

If he's changed his mind on this then great, problem solved and we can all move on with life and be happy. Something tells me this isn't the case though since you guys are insisting on dancing around the issue instead of just answering it with clear, concise language.

So no, it is not those of us who know what the terminology has meant for the last 15 years co-opting anything. It's you guys who are trying to redefine the term as though you invented the concept. Setting up a rule to teach the AI in Vortex how to parse your intent is NOT the definition of a manual process.

Every user of MO2, Wrye Bash, NMM, OBMM, and every single other less well known mod manager knows what the term "manual load order" means and it does not fit what Vortex is trying to change that to mean. Plenty of people have tried to point this out and have gone so far as to wonder WTF Tannin was thinking when he explicitly said it would never be made a feature. This is why you have thousands of people who do not consider Vortex to be an actual mod manager but instead a wrapper for LOOT services.

Well then they appear to be giving out information that's not consistent depending on who is asking the questions.

From the brief late night chat I had it was clear that they didn't really know anything of Vortex at all, or what it was capable of doing. A recurring issue for some of the naysayers. However, knowing the LOOT devs and the professional manner in which they hold themselves, they will only speak for LOOT, and I'm pretty sure they would not speak for Vortex, which are two different things entirely.

Every user

Classic.

The rest is just a semantic argument over what constitutes manual load ordering or not. We did 90 pages of that a year ago and our opinion on the topic has not changed. Edited August 6, 2019 by Dark0ne

[Deleted59475776User]

@ Dark0ne

Maybe it's too much asking but why you don't reserve some funds to Wrye Bash development as you did for NMM or Vortex? Knowing that this tool was founded by one of the best modders ever that has contributed to the elder scrolls community. The big handicap against WB development right now is that it was written by Python which is the language of scientific. Having diversified tools and solutions in the community will be a good thing. I understand well the strategy behind Vortex (a tool for "crowd") against WB (a tool for "elite").

Edited August 6, 2019 by Guest

[Guest deleted34304850]

a tool for "elite"? that's hilarious.

Edited August 6, 2019 by 1ae0bfb8

[Arthmoor]

In response to post #72306943. #72307193, #72316718, #72316773, #72318533, #72320893, #72324058, #72328358, #72331288 are all replies on the same post.

1ae0bfb8 wrote:

 

In response to post #72305858.

1ae0bfb8 wrote:

its a cut/paste job from a post on the UFO4P forums.

In response to post #72260498. #72302373 is also a reply to the same post.

Sonja wrote: I don't understand why there needs to be an argument over it either.
For me, it's quite simple; I don't use Vortex, and I never will. I'm still sticking with the tried and true... I install with Wrye Bash, do an initial pass with LOOT, and then tweak manually in Wrye Bash... wonderful, simple and intuitive. In all the years I've used it, Wrye Mash/Bash/Smash/Flash has never failed me.
Even the LOOT devs recommend AGAINST using the system the way Vortex does. LOOT should be regarded like a spelling, or grammar, checker.. It's great for a first pass to fix the most egregious problems, but it STILL needs a human hand..... One that has actually learnt how to build a load order, rather than relying on automation.
I've actually tried Vortex a couple of times now (and having modded Beth games since Morrowind, I KNOW what I'm doing by this point).... Just, no thanks.
No doubt Vortex is great for some people, but I'm not one of them. I want full control over the install process, and that includes being able to easily drag and drop mods.HadToRegister wrote:

I don't understand why there needs to be an argument over manual load order sorting, it's a simple feature why not just add it for those that want it, make it an option we can activate in the settings if you dont want it on by default

and dont give me that "new way of thinking" or "accept change", neither of those are an acceptable excuse to ignore a not insignificant portion of your user base

Another Argumentum ad Populum.

I too don't understand why there needs to be an argument about manual load order sorting, if you'd take the time to learn how to set rules in Vortex, or just drag and drop one plugin before or after another, you'd see how easy and quick it is.
People are just arguing FOR Manual Load Order Sorting just "Because"

Personally I don't understand why people want to keep an outdated and archaic way of doing your load order, when manual sorting allows you to mess it up fabulously.

I'd be interested in knowing the source of this, and where it is. Please can you provide it?

Even the LOOT devs recommend AGAINST using the system the way Vortex does

Amazing to see that Sonja had so many issues with vortex but never opened a single ticket. however, is fully prepared to shitpost about it. very odd behaviour.

its a cut/paste job from a post on the UFO4P forums.

Do you have the source of that? I'd like to know where it comes from so I can better understand why it's being mentioned.

try this;

 

https://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/3502925-the-unofficial-fallout-4-patch/page-702&do=findComment&comment=72201488

 

if that doesn't work, it's post #7014.

Dark0ne wrote: Ah, that, and the subsequent posts, definitely put some context to it. Though it still provides no reference to where the LOOT devs claimed it shouldn't be used in this manner. Classic case of "Chinese whispers" here. Thanks!

Arthmoor wrote: Why not just go ask them? It's not like they hide from their opinions on these matters. Especially when they've been asked about it, ans answered it, on their own Discord server for all to see.

They don't even claim LOOT itself is sufficient for managing things entirely, even within the context of setting up rules. They fully acknowledge the place manual load order sorting has in the community and they've never once tried to claim LOOT or anything relying on it can make that a thing of the past.

Arthmoor wrote: Why not just go ask them? It's not like they hide from their opinions on these matters. Especially when they've been asked about it, ans answered it, on their own Discord server for all to see.

They don't even claim LOOT itself is sufficient for managing things entirely, even within the context of setting up rules. They fully acknowledge the place manual load order sorting has in the community and they've never once tried to claim LOOT or anything relying on it can make that a thing of the past.

Zanderat wrote: The funny part is that manual ordering is entirely doable in Vortex. You can even, gasp, drag and drop. I am not not even sure what the argument is about.

Dark0ne wrote:

they've never once tried to claim LOOT or anything relying on it can make that a thing of the past.

And I don't think anyone working on Vortex has claimed they said that either? That was never even mentioned as far as the LOOT devs are concerned.

Why not just go ask them?

We did a year ago when you first made this claim, and just to completely confirm, I did again just now, as they are part of our Nexus Mods Dev Discord for the API. So yes, I can confirm, the LOOT devs do not have a problem with the way Vortex has implemented LOOT, nor have they said the Vortex system is not adequate. On top of that, it is clear that they (and probably you) do not know that the very few shortcomings that LOOT management has that have yet to been fixed (i.e. an example given by the LOOT devs, a plugin that absolutely has to load after another plugin, something LOOT cannot currently do) can be done in Vortex. I've obviously corrected them on that now.

While LOOT management is a large part of Vortex (because the vast majority of modders do not need anything more than it), for the very niche instances where LOOT cannot do something which means the LOOT devs cannot recommend it as a total replacement for manual load ordering - Vortex can.

Augusta Calidia wrote: Of course manual load ordering will never be a thing of the past. That's because manual load ordering, along with LOOT, are integral features of Vortex, the mod manager of the future.

Now the "drag and drop" fundamentalists would have you believe that Vortex has no manual load ordering capabilities. They have co-opted the term "manual" for themselves and preached that only drag and drop is the one true manual way to a perfect load order. Therefore, according to this dogma, Vortex could not possibly have manual load ordering capabilities. Many even say that Vortex, lacking this capability, is not worthy to be called a "mod manager."

However, this restrictive use of the term "manual" flies in the face of common usage. The term in the present context means "worked or done by hand and not by machine" (Merriam-Webster). When a drag and drop devotee moves a plugin up or down a plugin list, that is a user initiated, non-automated act properly called "manual." Likewise, when a Vortex user intervenes in a load order by creating a rule governing plugin behavior, that is just as much a user initiated, non-automated act properly called "manual" in the common meaning of the term.

Yes, Vortex is highly automated. However, Vortex also has a number of "manual override" switches precisely because LOOT is not adequate to the task of producing the perfect load order. Not only do these switches mean that manual load ordering capabilities are built into Vortex, but it also means that the Vortex user has ultimate control over load order. To say otherwise is simply to ignore the facts.

Arthmoor wrote:

So yes, I can confirm, the LOOT devs do not have a problem with the way Vortex has implemented LOOT, nor have they said the Vortex system is not adequate.

Well then they appear to be giving out information that's not consistent depending on who is asking the questions. Or maybe HOW the question is asked. Any time I've ever seen them comment on the issue, they will flat out tell you LOOT and anything based on LOOT is not the END of load order, it is the beginning, and they've further said that nothing Vortex is doing fundamentally changes that. So you can claim that "manual sorting" is a thing, but your own developer has crusaded against even considering this as an option for more than a year, which is why I commented on it back then to begin with. His publicly stated position on the matter is still there in your own forums for all to see. To sum it up though it amounts to "never going to happen".

... Vortex, the mod manager of the future.

Just... stop already. You sound like an infomercial when you do this. Especially when the statement directly contradicts what Tannin himself has said repeatedly. This isn't a religious agenda or some kind of dogma, it's the words from YOUR OWN DEVELOPER who said point blank that manual load ordering will never be a feature in Vortex.

If he's changed his mind on this then great, problem solved and we can all move on with life and be happy. Something tells me this isn't the case though since you guys are insisting on dancing around the issue instead of just answering it with clear, concise language.

So no, it is not those of us who know what the terminology has meant for the last 15 years co-opting anything. It's you guys who are trying to redefine the term as though you invented the concept. Setting up a rule to teach the AI in Vortex how to parse your intent is NOT the definition of a manual process.

Every user of MO2, Wrye Bash, NMM, OBMM, and every single other less well known mod manager knows what the term "manual load order" means and it does not fit what Vortex is trying to change that to mean. Plenty of people have tried to point this out and have gone so far as to wonder WTF Tannin was thinking when he explicitly said it would never be made a feature. This is why you have thousands of people who do not consider Vortex to be an actual mod manager but instead a wrapper for LOOT services.

Dark0ne wrote:

Well then they appear to be giving out information that's not consistent depending on who is asking the questions.

From the brief late night chat I had it was clear that they didn't really know anything of Vortex at all, or what it was capable of doing. A recurring issue for some of the naysayers. However, knowing the LOOT devs and the professional manner in which they hold themselves, they will only speak for LOOT, and I'm pretty sure they would not speak for Vortex, which are two different things entirely.

Every user

Classic.

The rest is just a semantic argument over what constitutes manual load ordering or not. We did 90 pages of that a year ago and our opinion on the topic has not changed.

We did 90 pages of that a year ago and our opinion on the topic has not changed.

I am aware of the dancing and weaving that caused it to go on for 90 pages as I'm pretty sure it's one of the threads I participated in at the time where at many points during that catastrophe of a thread we tried to explain the position and why it's valid only to be told "no, we're setting out to redefine the standards" and it was basically left at that. Sure, your opinion is your opinion, but that doesn't make it a correct one. Manual load ordering as defined by the community DOES NOT EXIST in Vortext and never did, nor does Tannin say it ever will.

Tannin and I have our disagreements on this, but at least he's honest and his opinion as a result can be respected. His program, his show, so if he just doesn't want to do it, so be it. That doesn't entitle anyone to change the definitions in an attempt to silence the argument.

[Arthmoor]

In response to post #72331048.

1ae0bfb8 wrote:

then they're all wrong too. i don't care about cv's or how long they've been around in a community, that doesn't give people a pass. i could list my cv for you too, if it made a difference, it doesn't.

 

we can all split hairs on what consititutes 'manual' load ordering until we're blue in the face.

 

i know for a FACT, an undeniable FACT, based on my own usage of the tool, that I can use vortex to sort a load order, and if after i have a load order in front of me i then decide that mod x is in the wrong place, i can MANUALLY override that load order placing the mod exactly where i want it to go. i can do that in a couple of ways, each achieving the same result.

 

That, to my mind is the very definition of manual load ordering.

 

i can also, if i want, go hog on this and create a separate rule for each mod in turn, ensuring that each mod is methodically loaded in the correct group/position in the group and get the same result. of course, that would be an insane amount of overkill, but i can still do it, should i choose. again, that is manual load order management.

 

I can even use drag/drop to ensure that a mod loads after another - something everyone says cannot be done, yet there it is.

 

"oh but that drag/drop is different to the real/correct method of drag/drop" and "that manual load ordering is different to the real/correct method of manual load ordering" is the counter argument, which is facile.

At the end of the day, if your plugins are sorted to how you want them, what does anyone care about how they were sorted? surely the correct result is the aim, not the colours on the UI or the font being used, or the fact that you have to click/drag a different area on the screen than previous?

 

the point here is, as long as i've been using vortex, it's never put mod x in a place where mod x is now broken or my game is broken because vortex/loot put a mod in the wrong place. now maybe i'm a complete outlier and my mod collection is too simple, or, maybe i'm just someone who has read how to install all his mods, and follows instructions from mod authors, and understands how loot works and how ESM's cannot be loaded after an ESP, i dunno.

 

in order to try and figure out when people claim they have issues with load ordering i have asked everyone who has ranted and raved and posted absolute crap in the support forums to provide one example, just one example, of a mod placed in the wrong place.

 

do you know how many have actually been able to do it?

 

not a single one.

 

so i can only conclude from the data i have that anyone who has a serious problem using vortex that results in their games being completely and utterly destroyed, doesn't post on the support forums, but sits there in silence, doing nothing. i find that incredibly hard to believe, but there you go.

 

bottom line - you don't want to use vortex - don't use it - move on with your life and feel good about yourself knowing that you can use a different tool to successfully copy files from one directory to another, and let's you click different bits of the screen that give you complete and awesome power over your mods, and let other people do their thing.

so i can only conclude from the data i have that anyone who has a serious problem using vortex that results in their games being completely and utterly destroyed, doesn't post on the support forums, but sits there in silence, doing nothing. i find that incredibly hard to believe, but there you go

They have actually. Either they get ignored or they get one of these ridiculous speeches like you just spit out that has no meaning and is full of triple-speak and redefinition of standard terms. So they don't post here anymore. They go elsewhere and get told to just use a real mod manager and then they move on, which is going to happen more, not less, as folks realize Vortex doesn't fit its square self down the round hole.

[Guest deleted34304850]

and how do you know and can verify that anyone and by implication everyone who isn't skilled enough to use vortex correctly is sat in silence? are you perchance omnipotent? the voice of "the order of the silent modder with the broken game"? :)

 

also, while you're at it, can you define "triple speak" and "real mod manager" as they appear to be something you've made up on the spot to try and justify your stance. without context, it's just words on a screen without meaning.

 

Honestly, you should use your own standards when it comes to posting up argumentum ad populum. if this was a post from some clown on the UFO4P page, they would have, quite rightly, been given short shrift. You say triple speak, I say "double standards".

 

Remember - if you don't use vortex, move on and click those different icons and revel in the awesome power at your mouse pointer.

 

thanks.

[Tannin42]

In response to post #72306943. #72307193, #72316718, #72316773, #72318533, #72320893, #72324058, #72328358, #72331288, #72342908, #72343558 are all replies on the same post.

1ae0bfb8 wrote:

 

In response to post #72305858.

1ae0bfb8 wrote:

its a cut/paste job from a post on the UFO4P forums.

In response to post #72260498. #72302373 is also a reply to the same post.

Sonja wrote: I don't understand why there needs to be an argument over it either.
For me, it's quite simple; I don't use Vortex, and I never will. I'm still sticking with the tried and true... I install with Wrye Bash, do an initial pass with LOOT, and then tweak manually in Wrye Bash... wonderful, simple and intuitive. In all the years I've used it, Wrye Mash/Bash/Smash/Flash has never failed me.
Even the LOOT devs recommend AGAINST using the system the way Vortex does. LOOT should be regarded like a spelling, or grammar, checker.. It's great for a first pass to fix the most egregious problems, but it STILL needs a human hand..... One that has actually learnt how to build a load order, rather than relying on automation.
I've actually tried Vortex a couple of times now (and having modded Beth games since Morrowind, I KNOW what I'm doing by this point).... Just, no thanks.
No doubt Vortex is great for some people, but I'm not one of them. I want full control over the install process, and that includes being able to easily drag and drop mods.HadToRegister wrote:

I don't understand why there needs to be an argument over manual load order sorting, it's a simple feature why not just add it for those that want it, make it an option we can activate in the settings if you dont want it on by default

and dont give me that "new way of thinking" or "accept change", neither of those are an acceptable excuse to ignore a not insignificant portion of your user base

Another Argumentum ad Populum.

I too don't understand why there needs to be an argument about manual load order sorting, if you'd take the time to learn how to set rules in Vortex, or just drag and drop one plugin before or after another, you'd see how easy and quick it is.
People are just arguing FOR Manual Load Order Sorting just "Because"

Personally I don't understand why people want to keep an outdated and archaic way of doing your load order, when manual sorting allows you to mess it up fabulously.

I'd be interested in knowing the source of this, and where it is. Please can you provide it?

Even the LOOT devs recommend AGAINST using the system the way Vortex does

Amazing to see that Sonja had so many issues with vortex but never opened a single ticket. however, is fully prepared to shitpost about it. very odd behaviour.

its a cut/paste job from a post on the UFO4P forums.

Do you have the source of that? I'd like to know where it comes from so I can better understand why it's being mentioned.

try this;

 

https://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/3502925-the-unofficial-fallout-4-patch/page-702&do=findComment&comment=72201488

 

if that doesn't work, it's post #7014.

Dark0ne wrote: Ah, that, and the subsequent posts, definitely put some context to it. Though it still provides no reference to where the LOOT devs claimed it shouldn't be used in this manner. Classic case of "Chinese whispers" here. Thanks!

Arthmoor wrote: Why not just go ask them? It's not like they hide from their opinions on these matters. Especially when they've been asked about it, ans answered it, on their own Discord server for all to see.

They don't even claim LOOT itself is sufficient for managing things entirely, even within the context of setting up rules. They fully acknowledge the place manual load order sorting has in the community and they've never once tried to claim LOOT or anything relying on it can make that a thing of the past.

Arthmoor wrote: Why not just go ask them? It's not like they hide from their opinions on these matters. Especially when they've been asked about it, ans answered it, on their own Discord server for all to see.

They don't even claim LOOT itself is sufficient for managing things entirely, even within the context of setting up rules. They fully acknowledge the place manual load order sorting has in the community and they've never once tried to claim LOOT or anything relying on it can make that a thing of the past.

Zanderat wrote: The funny part is that manual ordering is entirely doable in Vortex. You can even, gasp, drag and drop. I am not not even sure what the argument is about.

Dark0ne wrote:

they've never once tried to claim LOOT or anything relying on it can make that a thing of the past.

And I don't think anyone working on Vortex has claimed they said that either? That was never even mentioned as far as the LOOT devs are concerned.

Why not just go ask them?

We did a year ago when you first made this claim, and just to completely confirm, I did again just now, as they are part of our Nexus Mods Dev Discord for the API. So yes, I can confirm, the LOOT devs do not have a problem with the way Vortex has implemented LOOT, nor have they said the Vortex system is not adequate. On top of that, it is clear that they (and probably you) do not know that the very few shortcomings that LOOT management has that have yet to been fixed (i.e. an example given by the LOOT devs, a plugin that absolutely has to load after another plugin, something LOOT cannot currently do) can be done in Vortex. I've obviously corrected them on that now.

While LOOT management is a large part of Vortex (because the vast majority of modders do not need anything more than it), for the very niche instances where LOOT cannot do something which means the LOOT devs cannot recommend it as a total replacement for manual load ordering - Vortex can.

Augusta Calidia wrote: Of course manual load ordering will never be a thing of the past. That's because manual load ordering, along with LOOT, are integral features of Vortex, the mod manager of the future.

Now the "drag and drop" fundamentalists would have you believe that Vortex has no manual load ordering capabilities. They have co-opted the term "manual" for themselves and preached that only drag and drop is the one true manual way to a perfect load order. Therefore, according to this dogma, Vortex could not possibly have manual load ordering capabilities. Many even say that Vortex, lacking this capability, is not worthy to be called a "mod manager."

However, this restrictive use of the term "manual" flies in the face of common usage. The term in the present context means "worked or done by hand and not by machine" (Merriam-Webster). When a drag and drop devotee moves a plugin up or down a plugin list, that is a user initiated, non-automated act properly called "manual." Likewise, when a Vortex user intervenes in a load order by creating a rule governing plugin behavior, that is just as much a user initiated, non-automated act properly called "manual" in the common meaning of the term.

Yes, Vortex is highly automated. However, Vortex also has a number of "manual override" switches precisely because LOOT is not adequate to the task of producing the perfect load order. Not only do these switches mean that manual load ordering capabilities are built into Vortex, but it also means that the Vortex user has ultimate control over load order. To say otherwise is simply to ignore the facts.

Arthmoor wrote:

So yes, I can confirm, the LOOT devs do not have a problem with the way Vortex has implemented LOOT, nor have they said the Vortex system is not adequate.

Well then they appear to be giving out information that's not consistent depending on who is asking the questions. Or maybe HOW the question is asked. Any time I've ever seen them comment on the issue, they will flat out tell you LOOT and anything based on LOOT is not the END of load order, it is the beginning, and they've further said that nothing Vortex is doing fundamentally changes that. So you can claim that "manual sorting" is a thing, but your own developer has crusaded against even considering this as an option for more than a year, which is why I commented on it back then to begin with. His publicly stated position on the matter is still there in your own forums for all to see. To sum it up though it amounts to "never going to happen".

... Vortex, the mod manager of the future.

Just... stop already. You sound like an infomercial when you do this. Especially when the statement directly contradicts what Tannin himself has said repeatedly. This isn't a religious agenda or some kind of dogma, it's the words from YOUR OWN DEVELOPER who said point blank that manual load ordering will never be a feature in Vortex.

If he's changed his mind on this then great, problem solved and we can all move on with life and be happy. Something tells me this isn't the case though since you guys are insisting on dancing around the issue instead of just answering it with clear, concise language.

So no, it is not those of us who know what the terminology has meant for the last 15 years co-opting anything. It's you guys who are trying to redefine the term as though you invented the concept. Setting up a rule to teach the AI in Vortex how to parse your intent is NOT the definition of a manual process.

Every user of MO2, Wrye Bash, NMM, OBMM, and every single other less well known mod manager knows what the term "manual load order" means and it does not fit what Vortex is trying to change that to mean. Plenty of people have tried to point this out and have gone so far as to wonder WTF Tannin was thinking when he explicitly said it would never be made a feature. This is why you have thousands of people who do not consider Vortex to be an actual mod manager but instead a wrapper for LOOT services.

Dark0ne wrote:

Well then they appear to be giving out information that's not consistent depending on who is asking the questions.

From the brief late night chat I had it was clear that they didn't really know anything of Vortex at all, or what it was capable of doing. A recurring issue for some of the naysayers. However, knowing the LOOT devs and the professional manner in which they hold themselves, they will only speak for LOOT, and I'm pretty sure they would not speak for Vortex, which are two different things entirely.

Every user

Classic.

The rest is just a semantic argument over what constitutes manual load ordering or not. We did 90 pages of that a year ago and our opinion on the topic has not changed.

Arthmoor wrote:

We did 90 pages of that a year ago and our opinion on the topic has not changed.

I am aware of the dancing and weaving that caused it to go on for 90 pages as I'm pretty sure it's one of the threads I participated in at the time where at many points during that catastrophe of a thread we tried to explain the position and why it's valid only to be told "no, we're setting out to redefine the standards" and it was basically left at that. Sure, your opinion is your opinion, but that doesn't make it a correct one. Manual load ordering as defined by the community DOES NOT EXIST in Vortext and never did, nor does Tannin say it ever will.

Tannin and I have our disagreements on this, but at least he's honest and his opinion as a result can be respected. His program, his show, so if he just doesn't want to do it, so be it. That doesn't entitle anyone to change the definitions in an attempt to silence the argument.

Dark0ne wrote: Ah, the same tired semantics argument again.

Don't bother responding, it's not going to turn into another 90 page thread.

I wanted to skip this discussion because there is nothing here that hasn't been discussed to death before but sorry, can't...

On the matter of terminology:
The problem is that when you say "manual vs automatic" ordering you're insinuating that Vortex ordering doesn't allow the user to manually affect the order. You personally have claimed in the past Vortex to be (i paraphrase) "automatic and therefore taking control away from the user" which is factually, objectively incorrect. Worst case Vortex makes a detour via rules necessary.
This misinformation campaign is what triggered people to respond by "Vortex allows manual ordering too" which I agree now muddies the discussion a bit.

I've always tried my best to use more precise terminology "rule-based" vs "drag&drop" ordering when the distinction was necessary.
Unfortunately it wasn't picked up by many. On neither side of the discussion. Not by you either.
You are right that many users will interpret "manual ordering" to be the way it was done by older mod managers (although OBMM didn't actually have drag&drop but up/down buttons iirc) but you also know full well that a lot of users will misinterpret "automatic ordering". Actually, I assume you count on that.
And as far as I can tell every time anyone referred to what Vortex does as "manual" ordering they made it clear that it was a different form to what users are used to, whereas those who call Vortex "automatic" make no effort to clarify that it allows for all the customization any user needs.

So how about you give a good example by starting to use unambiguous terminology yourself?

Also, Arthmoor, stop misquoting me and others. Seriously, this is getting ridiculous. If you're going to quote someone, quote them, don't sell your flawed interpretation as the actual statement.

My stance on this is and has always been: If you can demonstrate a use case where a valid load order can't be created with rule-based ordering, we will investigate. (And we did investigate several of these claims and all turned out to be user error, where the user - with drag&drop ordering - would have created an invalid load order because they misinterpreted instructions or referred to outdated instructions)
And we always said: While _we_ aren't going to implement drag&drop ordering unless absolutely necessary, we won't stand in the way of anyone doing it as an extension. (And there was a project to do it (https://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/6384326-design-considerations-for-a-proposed-extension-to-facilitate-manual-plugin-ordering/) which was abandoned because the initiator realized that rule-based ordering wasn't all that bad after all. hmmm.) Edited August 6, 2019 by Tannin42

[Arthmoor]

In response to post #72306943. #72307193, #72316718, #72316773, #72318533, #72320893, #72324058, #72328358, #72331288, #72342908, #72343558, #72344193 are all replies on the same post.

1ae0bfb8 wrote:

 

In response to post #72305858.

1ae0bfb8 wrote:

its a cut/paste job from a post on the UFO4P forums.

In response to post #72260498. #72302373 is also a reply to the same post.

Sonja wrote: I don't understand why there needs to be an argument over it either.
For me, it's quite simple; I don't use Vortex, and I never will. I'm still sticking with the tried and true... I install with Wrye Bash, do an initial pass with LOOT, and then tweak manually in Wrye Bash... wonderful, simple and intuitive. In all the years I've used it, Wrye Mash/Bash/Smash/Flash has never failed me.
Even the LOOT devs recommend AGAINST using the system the way Vortex does. LOOT should be regarded like a spelling, or grammar, checker.. It's great for a first pass to fix the most egregious problems, but it STILL needs a human hand..... One that has actually learnt how to build a load order, rather than relying on automation.
I've actually tried Vortex a couple of times now (and having modded Beth games since Morrowind, I KNOW what I'm doing by this point).... Just, no thanks.
No doubt Vortex is great for some people, but I'm not one of them. I want full control over the install process, and that includes being able to easily drag and drop mods.HadToRegister wrote:

I don't understand why there needs to be an argument over manual load order sorting, it's a simple feature why not just add it for those that want it, make it an option we can activate in the settings if you dont want it on by default

and dont give me that "new way of thinking" or "accept change", neither of those are an acceptable excuse to ignore a not insignificant portion of your user base

Another Argumentum ad Populum.

I too don't understand why there needs to be an argument about manual load order sorting, if you'd take the time to learn how to set rules in Vortex, or just drag and drop one plugin before or after another, you'd see how easy and quick it is.
People are just arguing FOR Manual Load Order Sorting just "Because"

Personally I don't understand why people want to keep an outdated and archaic way of doing your load order, when manual sorting allows you to mess it up fabulously.

I'd be interested in knowing the source of this, and where it is. Please can you provide it?

Even the LOOT devs recommend AGAINST using the system the way Vortex does

Amazing to see that Sonja had so many issues with vortex but never opened a single ticket. however, is fully prepared to shitpost about it. very odd behaviour.

its a cut/paste job from a post on the UFO4P forums.

Do you have the source of that? I'd like to know where it comes from so I can better understand why it's being mentioned.

try this;

 

https://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/3502925-the-unofficial-fallout-4-patch/page-702&do=findComment&comment=72201488

 

if that doesn't work, it's post #7014.

Dark0ne wrote: Ah, that, and the subsequent posts, definitely put some context to it. Though it still provides no reference to where the LOOT devs claimed it shouldn't be used in this manner. Classic case of "Chinese whispers" here. Thanks!

Arthmoor wrote: Why not just go ask them? It's not like they hide from their opinions on these matters. Especially when they've been asked about it, ans answered it, on their own Discord server for all to see.

They don't even claim LOOT itself is sufficient for managing things entirely, even within the context of setting up rules. They fully acknowledge the place manual load order sorting has in the community and they've never once tried to claim LOOT or anything relying on it can make that a thing of the past.

Arthmoor wrote: Why not just go ask them? It's not like they hide from their opinions on these matters. Especially when they've been asked about it, ans answered it, on their own Discord server for all to see.

They don't even claim LOOT itself is sufficient for managing things entirely, even within the context of setting up rules. They fully acknowledge the place manual load order sorting has in the community and they've never once tried to claim LOOT or anything relying on it can make that a thing of the past.

Zanderat wrote: The funny part is that manual ordering is entirely doable in Vortex. You can even, gasp, drag and drop. I am not not even sure what the argument is about.

Dark0ne wrote:

they've never once tried to claim LOOT or anything relying on it can make that a thing of the past.

And I don't think anyone working on Vortex has claimed they said that either? That was never even mentioned as far as the LOOT devs are concerned.

Why not just go ask them?

We did a year ago when you first made this claim, and just to completely confirm, I did again just now, as they are part of our Nexus Mods Dev Discord for the API. So yes, I can confirm, the LOOT devs do not have a problem with the way Vortex has implemented LOOT, nor have they said the Vortex system is not adequate. On top of that, it is clear that they (and probably you) do not know that the very few shortcomings that LOOT management has that have yet to been fixed (i.e. an example given by the LOOT devs, a plugin that absolutely has to load after another plugin, something LOOT cannot currently do) can be done in Vortex. I've obviously corrected them on that now.

While LOOT management is a large part of Vortex (because the vast majority of modders do not need anything more than it), for the very niche instances where LOOT cannot do something which means the LOOT devs cannot recommend it as a total replacement for manual load ordering - Vortex can.

Augusta Calidia wrote: Of course manual load ordering will never be a thing of the past. That's because manual load ordering, along with LOOT, are integral features of Vortex, the mod manager of the future.

Now the "drag and drop" fundamentalists would have you believe that Vortex has no manual load ordering capabilities. They have co-opted the term "manual" for themselves and preached that only drag and drop is the one true manual way to a perfect load order. Therefore, according to this dogma, Vortex could not possibly have manual load ordering capabilities. Many even say that Vortex, lacking this capability, is not worthy to be called a "mod manager."

However, this restrictive use of the term "manual" flies in the face of common usage. The term in the present context means "worked or done by hand and not by machine" (Merriam-Webster). When a drag and drop devotee moves a plugin up or down a plugin list, that is a user initiated, non-automated act properly called "manual." Likewise, when a Vortex user intervenes in a load order by creating a rule governing plugin behavior, that is just as much a user initiated, non-automated act properly called "manual" in the common meaning of the term.

Yes, Vortex is highly automated. However, Vortex also has a number of "manual override" switches precisely because LOOT is not adequate to the task of producing the perfect load order. Not only do these switches mean that manual load ordering capabilities are built into Vortex, but it also means that the Vortex user has ultimate control over load order. To say otherwise is simply to ignore the facts.

Arthmoor wrote:

So yes, I can confirm, the LOOT devs do not have a problem with the way Vortex has implemented LOOT, nor have they said the Vortex system is not adequate.

Well then they appear to be giving out information that's not consistent depending on who is asking the questions. Or maybe HOW the question is asked. Any time I've ever seen them comment on the issue, they will flat out tell you LOOT and anything based on LOOT is not the END of load order, it is the beginning, and they've further said that nothing Vortex is doing fundamentally changes that. So you can claim that "manual sorting" is a thing, but your own developer has crusaded against even considering this as an option for more than a year, which is why I commented on it back then to begin with. His publicly stated position on the matter is still there in your own forums for all to see. To sum it up though it amounts to "never going to happen".

... Vortex, the mod manager of the future.

Just... stop already. You sound like an infomercial when you do this. Especially when the statement directly contradicts what Tannin himself has said repeatedly. This isn't a religious agenda or some kind of dogma, it's the words from YOUR OWN DEVELOPER who said point blank that manual load ordering will never be a feature in Vortex.

If he's changed his mind on this then great, problem solved and we can all move on with life and be happy. Something tells me this isn't the case though since you guys are insisting on dancing around the issue instead of just answering it with clear, concise language.

So no, it is not those of us who know what the terminology has meant for the last 15 years co-opting anything. It's you guys who are trying to redefine the term as though you invented the concept. Setting up a rule to teach the AI in Vortex how to parse your intent is NOT the definition of a manual process.

Every user of MO2, Wrye Bash, NMM, OBMM, and every single other less well known mod manager knows what the term "manual load order" means and it does not fit what Vortex is trying to change that to mean. Plenty of people have tried to point this out and have gone so far as to wonder WTF Tannin was thinking when he explicitly said it would never be made a feature. This is why you have thousands of people who do not consider Vortex to be an actual mod manager but instead a wrapper for LOOT services.

Dark0ne wrote:

Well then they appear to be giving out information that's not consistent depending on who is asking the questions.

From the brief late night chat I had it was clear that they didn't really know anything of Vortex at all, or what it was capable of doing. A recurring issue for some of the naysayers. However, knowing the LOOT devs and the professional manner in which they hold themselves, they will only speak for LOOT, and I'm pretty sure they would not speak for Vortex, which are two different things entirely.

Every user

Classic.

The rest is just a semantic argument over what constitutes manual load ordering or not. We did 90 pages of that a year ago and our opinion on the topic has not changed.

Arthmoor wrote:

We did 90 pages of that a year ago and our opinion on the topic has not changed.

I am aware of the dancing and weaving that caused it to go on for 90 pages as I'm pretty sure it's one of the threads I participated in at the time where at many points during that catastrophe of a thread we tried to explain the position and why it's valid only to be told "no, we're setting out to redefine the standards" and it was basically left at that. Sure, your opinion is your opinion, but that doesn't make it a correct one. Manual load ordering as defined by the community DOES NOT EXIST in Vortext and never did, nor does Tannin say it ever will.

Tannin and I have our disagreements on this, but at least he's honest and his opinion as a result can be respected. His program, his show, so if he just doesn't want to do it, so be it. That doesn't entitle anyone to change the definitions in an attempt to silence the argument.

Dark0ne wrote: Ah, the same tired semantics argument again.

Don't bother responding, it's not going to turn into another 90 page thread.

Tannin42 wrote: I wanted to skip this discussion because there is nothing here that hasn't been discussed to death before but sorry, can't...

On the matter of terminology:
The problem is that when you say "manual vs automatic" ordering you're insinuating that Vortex ordering doesn't allow the user to manually affect the order. You personally have claimed in the past Vortex to be (i paraphrase) "automatic and therefore taking control away from the user" which is factually, objectively incorrect. Worst case Vortex makes a detour via rules necessary.
This misinformation campaign is what triggered people to respond by "Vortex allows manual ordering too" which I agree now muddies the discussion a bit.

I've always tried my best to use more precise terminology "rule-based" vs "drag&drop" ordering when the distinction was necessary.
Unfortunately it wasn't picked up by many. On neither side of the discussion. Not by you either.
You are right that many users will interpret "manual ordering" to be the way it was done by older mod managers (although OBMM didn't actually have drag&drop but up/down buttons iirc) but you also know full well that a lot of users will misinterpret "automatic ordering". Actually, I assume you count on that.
And as far as I can tell every time anyone referred to what Vortex does as "manual" ordering they made it clear that it was a different form to what users are used to, whereas those who call Vortex "automatic" make no effort to clarify that it allows for all the customization any user needs.

So how about you give a good example by starting to use unambiguous terminology yourself?

Also, Arthmoor, stop misquoting me and others. Seriously, this is getting ridiculous. If you're going to quote someone, quote them, don't sell your flawed interpretation as the actual statement.

My stance on this is and has always been: If you can demonstrate a use case where a valid load order can't be created with rule-based ordering, we will investigate. (And we did investigate several of these claims and all turned out to be user error, where the user - with drag&drop ordering - would have created an invalid load order because they misinterpreted instructions or referred to outdated instructions)
And we always said: While _we_ aren't going to implement drag&drop ordering unless absolutely necessary, we won't stand in the way of anyone doing it as an extension. (And there was a project to do it (https://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/6384326-design-considerations-for-a-proposed-extension-to-facilitate-manual-plugin-ordering/) which was abandoned because the initiator realized that rule-based ordering wasn't all that bad after all. hmmm.)

Also, Arthmoor, stop misquoting me and others. Seriously, this is getting ridiculous. If you're going to quote someone, quote them, don't sell your flawed interpretation as the actual statement.

Accusations like this are why it's futile to attempt to have a rational discussion with anyone on the Vortex team about these matters. I have not misquoted you, or anyone else in this, I've simply restated what you've all been drumbeating since this whole shitshow began. You have said flat out on several occasions, directly to me and others, that manual load ordering is not going to be included. You know as well as I do that I did not agree with this direction but accepted that it's your shitshow to manage, and left it at that.

You seem to now be playing along with the revisionist game that's being played here, so have at it, you're not going to change the minds of those of us who know what's actually going on here. You certainly aren't going to get us to start recommending a flathead screwdriver for games that are using phillips head screws.

The only misinformation campaign being waged here is the one being conducted by the dev team and Nexus staff.

[SeleenAvathea]

In response to post #72321343.

ravernware wrote: I used to be a Votex Hater. Seriously. Or was it that I had become so comfortable with NMM? 3 days ago I made my third attempt over a few months period to move FO4 from NMM to Vortex as NMM was seriously showing its age. Well after some mega frustrations (I just could not migrate all my d/l'd mods from NMM into Vortex) and a few F-bombs I finally got it. I mean I REALLY got it. I feel I now understand how vortex works. Frankly, imo it works great. I basically created a new folder for my FO4 mods, and set that as the Vortex mod install folder. Then installed each one manually. It took a while to load 204 mods into vortex. Then set up the load rules to clear the mod conflicts Vortex id'd. But once I got the hang of it, it became relatively simple. Created an F4SE game profile and then set up the correct file paths for the tools (Loot, FOEDIT, F4SE, Bodyslide, etc.).
So.. now I find I am a Vortex lover. Yes. I now love Vortex. I used to blame the extreme slow loading times of FO4 had before on Win10. But now that I am running Vortex I realize it was old man NMM. FO4 starts up super fast now (under 60 sec) in F4SE mod and 204 active mods. Runs way more stable too. So all that said, I really recommend to my fellow NMM holdouts to take the plunge, work through the frustrations, READ the knowledge base, and migrate to Vortex. I am sooo glad I finally did.
Huge happy face!! :)

First of all, yeah, maybe you can do manually import 204 mods in a reasonable time, but at around ~500 it just gets ridicolous, and we'll never talk about the grief you have importing 1000+ mods manually.
And for the rules: You may find that simple, but a lot of people just don't care to learn what technically amounts to a basic programming language just to get their game working smoothly. I swear, if i ever read a popup about looping rules again i'll eat 15 wheels of cheese at once.
I'm not a programmer. Mainly because i hate fiddling with syntax in rules and command lines and go on error hunts. I really, really don't want to do just that for 2 weeks just to get my skyrim to a playable state. Especially if your mod list contains finicky stuff that needs a lot of load order love that vortex just won't handle, like for example running requiem, defeat and captured with all their extension mods in just the right order as to not hamper each other. What used to be ~20 minutes of dragging and dropping is now about half a day of nothing more but rudimentary coding, because trial and error is a lot more tedious if you have to write a sentence every time instead of just clicking a thing. it just adds up.
That is, if the rule system works, and vortex doesn't just decide to ignore your custom rules because it thinks it knows better anyway. Which it 99% doesn't do. Edited August 6, 2019 by SeleenAvathea

[HadToRegister]

 

In response to post #72321343.

 

 

 

ravernware wrote: I used to be a Votex Hater. Seriously. Or was it that I had become so comfortable with NMM? 3 days ago I made my third attempt over a few months period to move FO4 from NMM to Vortex as NMM was seriously showing its age. Well after some mega frustrations (I just could not migrate all my d/l'd mods from NMM into Vortex) and a few F-bombs I finally got it. I mean I REALLY got it. I feel I now understand how vortex works. Frankly, imo it works great. I basically created a new folder for my FO4 mods, and set that as the Vortex mod install folder. Then installed each one manually. It took a while to load 204 mods into vortex. Then set up the load rules to clear the mod conflicts Vortex id'd. But once I got the hang of it, it became relatively simple. Created an F4SE game profile and then set up the correct file paths for the tools (Loot, FOEDIT, F4SE, Bodyslide, etc.).

So.. now I find I am a Vortex lover. Yes. I now love Vortex. I used to blame the extreme slow loading times of FO4 had before on Win10. But now that I am running Vortex I realize it was old man NMM. FO4 starts up super fast now (under 60 sec) in F4SE mod and 204 active mods. Runs way more stable too. So all that said, I really recommend to my fellow NMM holdouts to take the plunge, work through the frustrations, READ the knowledge base, and migrate to Vortex. I am sooo glad I finally did.

Huge happy face!! :smile:

First of all, yeah, maybe you can do manually import 204 mods in a reasonable time, but at around ~500 it just gets ridicolous, and we'll never talk about the grief you have importing 1000+ mods manually.

And for the rules: You may find that simple, but a lot of people just don't care to learn what technically amounts to a basic programming language just to get their game working smoothly. I swear, if i ever read a popup about looping rules again i'll eat 15 wheels of cheese at once.

I'm not a programmer. Mainly because i hate fiddling with syntax in rules and command lines and go on error hunts. I really, really don't want to do just that for 2 weeks just to get my skyrim to a playable state. Especially if your mod list contains finicky stuff that needs a lot of load order love that vortex just won't handle, like for example running requiem, defeat and captured with all their extension mods in just the right order as to not hamper each other. What used to be ~20 minutes of dragging and dropping is now about half a day of nothing more but rudimentary coding, because trial and error is a lot more tedious if you have to write a sentence every time instead of just clicking a thing. it just adds up.

That is, if the rule system works, and vortex doesn't just decide to ignore your custom rules because it thinks it knows better anyway. Which it 99% doesn't do.

 

 

That's the most far fetched one I've heard yet.