Vortex 1.0 Release

[AugustaCalidia]

In response to post #72419883. #72430168 is also a reply to the same post.

Zanderat wrote: Wow. Maybe I should not be extending the life of this argument. But................

I simply don't get the it. As an experiment, I made a clean game profile. Installed a smallish amount of mods, around 30. I turned off auto sort. And then proceeded to use Vorteex's drag and drop option to order the plugins. Because auto sort is turned off, Vortex/LOOT won't mess with your load order. Isn't that what the Arthmoor's of the world want? Maybe I am missing the point, but this seems like much fuss over nothing.

Arthmoor wrote: You are somewhat missing the point, yes. In order to get what you describe, you have to disable the autosort. Which means you'd have to go back to the way actual mod managers handle things and run LOOT externally to get that benefit, but the problem is that you're still generating rules for what you're asking of it when it would have been simpler to just stick to the standards the community has established and offer a proper drag & drop without compromising the integration with LOOT. If other programs can do this, surely Vortex can too? Unless of course, as the developers say, they've set out to change the standard for the sake of changing the standard. Which is something I'd expect out of Microsoft, not a mod installer.

Where have the Vortex developers ever said that they've "set out to change the standard for the sake of changing the standard?" Or are you simply speaking hypothetically?

[Dark0ne]

In response to post #72419883. #72430168, #72436683 are all replies on the same post.

Zanderat wrote: Wow. Maybe I should not be extending the life of this argument. But................

I simply don't get the it. As an experiment, I made a clean game profile. Installed a smallish amount of mods, around 30. I turned off auto sort. And then proceeded to use Vorteex's drag and drop option to order the plugins. Because auto sort is turned off, Vortex/LOOT won't mess with your load order. Isn't that what the Arthmoor's of the world want? Maybe I am missing the point, but this seems like much fuss over nothing.

Arthmoor wrote: You are somewhat missing the point, yes. In order to get what you describe, you have to disable the autosort. Which means you'd have to go back to the way actual mod managers handle things and run LOOT externally to get that benefit, but the problem is that you're still generating rules for what you're asking of it when it would have been simpler to just stick to the standards the community has established and offer a proper drag & drop without compromising the integration with LOOT. If other programs can do this, surely Vortex can too? Unless of course, as the developers say, they've set out to change the standard for the sake of changing the standard. Which is something I'd expect out of Microsoft, not a mod installer.

Augusta Calidia wrote: Where have the Vortex developers ever said that they've "set out to change the standard for the sake of changing the standard?" Or are you simply speaking hypothetically?

Where have the Vortex developers ever said that they've "set out to change the standard for the sake of changing the standard?" Or are you simply speaking hypothetically?

Nowhere. It's made up. Edited August 10, 2019 by Dark0ne

[Guest deleted34304850]

 

In response to post #72419883. #72430168, #72436683 are all replies on the same post.

 

 

 

Zanderat wrote: Wow. Maybe I should not be extending the life of this argument. But................

 

I simply don't get the it. As an experiment, I made a clean game profile. Installed a smallish amount of mods, around 30. I turned off auto sort. And then proceeded to use Vorteex's drag and drop option to order the plugins. Because auto sort is turned off, Vortex/LOOT won't mess with your load order. Isn't that what the Arthmoor's of the world want? Maybe I am missing the point, but this seems like much fuss over nothing.

Arthmoor wrote: You are somewhat missing the point, yes. In order to get what you describe, you have to disable the autosort. Which means you'd have to go back to the way actual mod managers handle things and run LOOT externally to get that benefit, but the problem is that you're still generating rules for what you're asking of it when it would have been simpler to just stick to the standards the community has established and offer a proper drag & drop without compromising the integration with LOOT. If other programs can do this, surely Vortex can too? Unless of course, as the developers say, they've set out to change the standard for the sake of changing the standard. Which is something I'd expect out of Microsoft, not a mod installer.

Augusta Calidia wrote: Where have the Vortex developers ever said that they've "set out to change the standard for the sake of changing the standard?" Or are you simply speaking hypothetically?

Where have the Vortex developers ever said that they've "set out to change the standard for the sake of changing the standard?" Or are you simply speaking hypothetically?

Nowhere. It's made up.

 

this saddens me, a lot.

i really don't get the point of doing that. the internet is truly a weird place sometimes.

[DSPiron]

In response to post #72419883. #72430168, #72436683 are all replies on the same post.

-DS snip-

Where have the Vortex developers ever said that they've "set out to change the standard for the sake of changing the standard?" Or are you simply speaking hypothetically?

Nowhere. It's made up.

 

Looks more like it's assumed,

It seems pretty clear the Nexus is out to change the standard of how the user sorts mods (or, more specfically, the 'plugins'(.ESM/.ESP/.ESL files) of mods), and it just appears like there is no good reason.

Because the reasons listed are either;

• Were already present without Vortex,
• Won't actually happen with Vortex
• Make no sense at all no matter what

I got the impression that the goal is to use Vortex to encourage more people to think of load orders in terms of LOOT rules, rather than a set orders for 'plugins'.

Then, hopefully more users will send LOOT rules to the masterlist, and LOOT will able to sort mods with fewer instances of needing to be corrected.

 

That will never happen. Anybody who knows how to sort 'plugins' don't want to put up with explaining to LOOT how to sort 'plugins', assuming it is even mechanically capable of that (The fact that LOOT's load orders still don't match most competent load orders suggest that it's technically impossible. (Or they are also up their own ass and are insisting on a configuration that doesn't work. ...I feel it's more polite to assume the former.))

And anyone who isn't turned away probably doesn't know enough to be a good help with other users orders.

 

can i ask how is the integration with loot compromised in the scenario above? I am taking the use of the word compromised in this context, to indicate that loot's function has been somehow broken, or, at least, mis-used.

 

is my understanding of that wrong? again, thanks in advance for any insight you can offer.

Answer (emphasis mine, for those just tuning in.):

And then proceeded to use Vorteex's drag and drop option to order the plugins. Because auto sort is turned off, Vortex/LOOT won't mess with your load order.

The point of having LOOT integrated is for it to mess with your load order.

Disabling LOOT's sorting makes it like other mod managers, but with a more cumbersome sorting mechanism:

• You are still setting rules.

  While setting a rule can be as easy as dragging a to another , you still have to confirm each one.

• and you have to remove rules if you decide they aren't needed
• And, probably most importantly, the rules don't guarantee the dragged mod will be after the one it was dropped on.

  Ideally this position is just as good, but in reality it hasn't been tested, or it's wrong, but there wasn't a rule against it

...Not even sure how you got it to arrange the 'plugins' without running the LOOT sort one way or another.

(If you did run it, did the plugin go where they supposed to? Great, now try that with 150, then 240[/i'm being sarcastic, and while there have been reports of successes with more mods, there have been reports of NMM not falling apart on users. NMM will still encounter issues, and Vortex will still hit mod sets it can't sort.)

 

In short, what they want is to "micromanage" the load order, as it's a quicker, simpler, and more intuitive way to get it right, rather than trying to figure out to get LOOT to do it right.

If the user doesn't know how to get it right, then they need to learn how.

If they are using Vortex and doesn't know, then they'd need to learn how to use Vortex\LOOT and how to sort their load order through Vortex\LOOT, as most info on sorting load orders require the user to "micromanage".

Edited August 10, 2019 by DSPiron

[HadToRegister]

The point of having LOOT integrated is for it to mess with your load order.

 

That has to be the dumbest thing I've read today

 

Good thing you can use NMM, MO, MO2, or any other mod manger rather than Vortex, instead of wasting your time complaining about a mod manager you don't want to use.

 

I have 266 mods in SSE, I have 7 manually sorted, because, lo and behold, when I installed them, Vortex put the plugin after the other plugins that the Mod Description page told me the plugin needed to go after.

 

I have 279 mods in Fallout 4, I think I have 8 plugins that had to be manually placed, (Scrap Everything was one), I assigned it to "Dynamic Patches" and I was done.

 

These "Manual Sorting" arguments seem to come from people who want to sort all 279 plugins, when it's completely unnecessary.

 

I used to argue for Manual Sorting too, then I dropped the bad habits of NMM, and let Vortex do it, and it allowed me to download and install mods en masse, deal with a few Mod Conflicts and I was done, in about a half hour, with 279 mods.

I converted 75 of the esps to ESPfe through Vortex

 

[Arthmoor]

In response to post #72448278.

1ae0bfb8 wrote:

 

In response to post #72419883. #72430168, #72436683 are all replies on the same post.

Zanderat wrote: Wow. Maybe I should not be extending the life of this argument. But................

I simply don't get the it. As an experiment, I made a clean game profile. Installed a smallish amount of mods, around 30. I turned off auto sort. And then proceeded to use Vorteex's drag and drop option to order the plugins. Because auto sort is turned off, Vortex/LOOT won't mess with your load order. Isn't that what the Arthmoor's of the world want? Maybe I am missing the point, but this seems like much fuss over nothing.

Arthmoor wrote: You are somewhat missing the point, yes. In order to get what you describe, you have to disable the autosort. Which means you'd have to go back to the way actual mod managers handle things and run LOOT externally to get that benefit, but the problem is that you're still generating rules for what you're asking of it when it would have been simpler to just stick to the standards the community has established and offer a proper drag & drop without compromising the integration with LOOT. If other programs can do this, surely Vortex can too? Unless of course, as the developers say, they've set out to change the standard for the sake of changing the standard. Which is something I'd expect out of Microsoft, not a mod installer.

Augusta Calidia wrote: Where have the Vortex developers ever said that they've "set out to change the standard for the sake of changing the standard?" Or are you simply speaking hypothetically?

Where have the Vortex developers ever said that they've "set out to change the standard for the sake of changing the standard?" Or are you simply speaking hypothetically?

Nowhere. It's made up.

 

this saddens me, a lot.

i really don't get the point of doing that. the internet is truly a weird place sometimes.

Nobody made anything up. Go read the Vortex forums and Tannin's own statements on this. You'll find the only one making things up is Dark0ne trying to cover up the truth of what his own team has been saying.

[Guest deleted34304850]

 

In response to post #72419883. #72430168, #72436683 are all replies on the same post.

-DS snip-

Where have the Vortex developers ever said that they've "set out to change the standard for the sake of changing the standard?" Or are you simply speaking hypothetically?

Nowhere. It's made up.

 

Looks more like it's assumed,

It seems pretty clear the Nexus is out to change the standard of how the user sorts mods (or, more specfically, the 'plugins'(.ESM/.ESP/.ESL files) of mods), and it just appears like there is no good reason.

Because the reasons listed are either;

• Were already present without Vortex,
• Won't actually happen with Vortex
• Make no sense at all no matter what

I got the impression that the goal is to use Vortex to encourage more people to think of load orders in terms of LOOT rules, rather than a set orders for 'plugins'.

Then, hopefully more users will send LOOT rules to the masterlist, and LOOT will able to sort mods with fewer instances of needing to be corrected.

 

That will never happen. Anybody who knows how to sort 'plugins' don't want to put up with explaining to LOOT how to sort 'plugins', assuming it is even mechanically capable of that (The fact that LOOT's load orders still don't match most competent load orders suggest that it's technically impossible. (Or they are also up their own ass and are insisting on a configuration that doesn't work. ...I feel it's more polite to assume the former.))

And anyone who isn't turned away probably doesn't know enough to be a good help with other users orders.

 

can i ask how is the integration with loot compromised in the scenario above? I am taking the use of the word compromised in this context, to indicate that loot's function has been somehow broken, or, at least, mis-used.

 

is my understanding of that wrong? again, thanks in advance for any insight you can offer.

Answer (emphasis mine, for those just tuning in.):

And then proceeded to use Vorteex's drag and drop option to order the plugins. Because auto sort is turned off, Vortex/LOOT won't mess with your load order.

The point of having LOOT integrated is for it to mess with your load order.

Disabling LOOT's sorting makes it like other mod managers, but with a more cumbersome sorting mechanism:

• You are still setting rules.

  While setting a rule can be as easy as dragging a to another , you still have to confirm each one.

• and you have to remove rules if you decide they aren't needed
• And, probably most importantly, the rules don't guarantee the dragged mod will be after the one it was dropped on.

  Ideally this position is just as good, but in reality it hasn't been tested, or it's wrong, but there wasn't a rule against it

...Not even sure how you got it to arrange the 'plugins' without running the LOOT sort one way or another.

(If you did run it, did the plugin go where they supposed to? Great, now try that with 150, then 240[/i'm being sarcastic, and while there have been reports of successes with more mods, there have been reports of NMM not falling apart on users. NMM will still encounter issues, and Vortex will still hit mod sets it can't sort.)

 

In short, what they want is to "micromanage" the load order, as it's a quicker, simpler, and more intuitive way to get it right, rather than trying to figure out to get LOOT to do it right.

If the user doesn't know how to get it right, then they need to learn how.

If they are using Vortex and doesn't know, then they'd need to learn how to use Vortex\LOOT and how to sort their load order through Vortex\LOOT, as most info on sorting load orders require the user to "micromanage".

 

i read this several times and what you have described, i have never experienced. the opinions you have posted about loot are not my experiences, the opinions about vortex are not my experiences.

they may be yours, and if they are then that's fine, but they are not anything i have experienced, so i cannot agree with anything you have posted here.

[AugustaCalidia]

This celebration of Vortex has devolved into a totally unnecessary fight between those who want to play games and those who want to play load order. There's room for both in the big, beautiful modding universe. Can't we just agree to disagree and get on with our lives?

[HadToRegister]

This celebration of Vortex has devolved into a totally unnecessary fight between those who want to play games and those who want to play load order. There's room for both in the big, beautiful modding universe. Can't we just agree to disagree and get on with our lives?

 

 

No kidding, it's not like the people who are making the most noise and complaints about Vortex even use it to begin with.

[Guest deleted34304850]

i've never actually figured the reasons for that out.

if i don't use a product/company/whatever, i see no need for me to spend my time telling people that i don't like/use whatever it is i don't use.

however, if you removed all that from the internet, it would be a much smaller place.

anyway, it's very odd.

:)