SpyderArachnid Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 In response to post #24565684. #24565749, #24565819, #24565874, #24565944, #24566139, #24566154, #24566189, #24566214, #24566264, #24566339, #24566349, #24566439, #24566459, #24566504, #24566524, #24566569, #24566579, #24566644, #24566769, #24566779, #24566819, #24566909, #24566934, #24567024, #24567079, #24567154, #24567239, #24567264, #24567269, #24567344, #24567354, #24567469, #24567539, #24567564, #24567664, #24568174, #24568504, #24568524, #24569644 are all replies on the same post. Reveal hidden contents Quote Brumbek wrote: Quote Zaldiir wrote: Wait a little bit. See if the updated donation system here on NexusMods will make more people donate. :thumbsup:If it doesn't increase the amount of donations, then I don't blame you for wanting just a little bit of compensation for your hours of work. $1 or $2 is definitely not greedy - just a shock for a lot of people. Quote athiust wrote: Your awesome you have caused alot of joy in alot of people and have created satisfaction and an echo within the community Quote RJ the Shadow wrote: What I think is an option, and an error on Valve's part for not thinking of/considering this, is to make payment optional.Was there not a thing in the music market (with CD sales only suffering more as years go by) where some artists put up a "pay what you want, or nothing at all" for the mp3's and the sales made for them reached above what they had earned on previous works?A non-negotiable option should have been to have the mod for free, with payment a convenient option (ideal with Steam have it's Wallet).There ARE people out there who want to vote with their wallet. But they're not given the option. Instead, they are forced to offer their wallet or are refused the content. And as made obvious, Valve will paywall anything, not even trusting us to use our money to show thanks.It differs from Paypal Donations because the question is directly forced upon the user. Whereas a Donation button can be skipped or ignored.Being asked on the spot if you actually want to pay nothing for the content you're about to receive, plays on our sense of morality. Quote Velgath wrote: My biggest problem with the new system as-is is it kind of screws with people using alternative modding tools like Mod Organizer. Your mod is very worth a fee, but I still wouldn't buy it if it were on Workshop... that said, I may have just clicked a button on your profile page. Quote Brumbek wrote: Thank you for the comments. Again, I'm so torn. I view myself as an average person. I don't want to be greedy or unfair. Sadly, this new system will bring out the greed in many. Valve, itself, is already pushing $1-3 weapons/armor. Then there's my mod and others like it...so much effort and passion into it. I hate to say human nature is the real issue here...SMIM does accept donations on Nexus of course (much thanks to you and others who have donated), but in truth my total donations has been very, very low. So for Steam, I see why they want to force a price...people just won't pay if they don't have to, even if they adore a mod and wouldn't play without it. I'm not judging. I will continue to develop my thoughts. Thanks again to everyone who makes this a great community. Quote heero328 wrote: Do what you have to do. I don't believe anybody would blame you for charging around $2 for SMIM. For what the mod does, that's incredibly generous on your part. I think many are more concerned with the long term implications this could have on modding and the adverse effects of it. It's not necessarily the issue of mod authors receiving money, but the fact publishers and developers are now trying to get a piece of the pie as well. Quote 1erCru wrote: Torn? Um, you have 2.3 million unique downloads. If you charge $2 bucks for the SMIM and take 25% of the cut thats over a million bucks bro. This is a game changer. Quote A1Shareef wrote: Its not greedy but think about the modding community as a howl, i bet if you write this in the description of your mod people would be happy to donate you anyway. Its not worth for 25% killing this Community and putting Gamers out there into Electronic Slavery. Plz think about it. Quote boulegue wrote: to be honest before the paid service for the steam workshop came out i have never even seen the donation button (im not using SMIM since i play on a potato) but you sir defnetly deserve donations or payment period.you can also set up your mod on both the steam workshop and the nexus and just see what happens Quote ambria wrote: @ 1erCru That's presuming everyone who'd downloaded would pay though.As someone who's made music and put it on bandcamp I can tell you the drop off between downloading for free and paying is huge, even with a tiny paywall like $0.50I'll have 100 download for free, but only 5-10 with that paywall there Quote Blademaster1215 wrote: All I'm going to say, while I very much love SMIM, and I appreciate the work you do. I would uninstall SMIM right now if you started paygating. I'd more than happily donate to you -- In fact I'll drop you 10 buck through the Nexus donation system if you don't do paygating. Quote Psijonica wrote: what is the difference if I pay or donate? If people think that they will get donations then they might as well sell them.I will never donate or pay. I will sooner stop playing these games altogether just like I don't buy music any more... There will always be a way to get these mods for free...This is a sad sad day indeed... sadder still is that the Nexus sees it's future in begging people top donate money for their modders... this place lacks vision and the Nexus will fall apart if they don't change they way they conduct business. Quote SirTopas wrote: Brumbek, I understand your position. You've put in a ton of work on SMIM and you certainly have kept it supported and working. You certainly deserve compensation for your work, but does Steam/BethSoft deserve 75% of the proceeds? Quote RJ the Shadow wrote: Torn or not, if you join in the paywall game, the rules will change. Nothing guarantees you'll get a lion's share of those 2.3 million unique downloads to be turned into people paying.And you'll still be paying a huge part of the result to Valve and Bethesda.If this proves a successful venture (for Valve) in the end, there is very little stopping these companies from looking for ways to counter websites like the Nexus. Valve has proven well enough to happily chase after any angles that make money, consequences be damned.I know, I know. It's real easy for me to talk like this and not be in your position. It's very easy for me to say that taking part could set a worse precedent for the future. And I am, deeply, sorry that you are forced to find yourself in this position.But it doesn't make it any less true. Quote EvilDeadAsh34 wrote: @1erCru You think that many people would download it if he charged? Think again.Don't get me wrong. I love what he did and i have made compatibility patches for one of my mods to work with his, but if he charged i wouldn't use it. That goes for any mod. Quote 1erCru wrote: that wasnt my point. My point was simply that a mod like SMIM could generate enough money to make millions of dollars assuming that eventually all mods will be pay to play ( I'd bet on this being true after 5-7 years, its what happens when you monetize just about anything )Even a fraction of those numbers is hundreds of thousands of dollars. I was clarifying that this isnt about making some " extra coin ". Top modders will get rich off this.Free modding is dead. Quote IgnacyOrder wrote: Im for rewarding a modder who did spend a lot of time on his work. Im not a fan of iddea that all mods will be charged. Especially before testing them out. I mean I saw a crowbar for 1$...I hope donations will work better. Especially since modder will get 100% for his work than 25% only Quote Uranium - 235 wrote: I think in part the reason donations are low is because Nexus has no unified, easy way to do it. Logging into a paypal and s#*! is just way too much work, not to mention Paypal is garbage in its own right.If I had a 'Nexus Wallet' or something where you could easily chip $0.50 or $1 in the direction of a mod with a single click of a button, that'd be one thing, but the other problem is you have to get people to fill their wallet. Quote RiffyDivine wrote: Don't make me pay steam and I'll give you two dollars but since I paid for it I will expect support and updates since I now bought something. This adds expectations on you since you are selling a product now. Quote Brumbek wrote: Thanks for the continued input. To be clear, SMIM will NEVER, EVER be removed from Skyrim Nexus. It will always be free here, ALWAYS. I've never enjoyed sharing donation info because it makes me seem like I'm pressuring people. But changes to Nexus to improve the visibility of donations would be fine of course.As for Steam, I understand people not wanting modding to die or something, but honestly I doubt that would happen. The type of people who overcharge or force people to pay are generally not the people we want in our community anyway. Also, there's no denying thousands of people on Steam way overspend on nonsense stuff. Just look at DOTA2 and CS:GO. Artists put out a simple skin and make lots of money. It pains me that people pay so much for so little...plus it tends to drown out the truly worthy content...and in my mind SMIM is worth $2 for the convenience of using Steam Workshop for casual users.For clarity, SW currently doesn't allow us to truly limit prices. We pick a default price and then the range of $0.25 to $99 always shows in the list. You can force a minimum but not maximum! I do not want to let users pay over $2 because I don't want to engage in extortion! But currently I can't limit it...hence why I'm undecided. Quote Rigmor wrote: You will eventually isolate yourself, maybe not you IF all your work is your own. But take my mod, employs a team of over 12 voice actors, who pays them? never mind about the other mod authors works included, with their kind permissions, and I worked over 1300 hours in the CK, but I cannot (wont) charge a fee. It's untenable. So why should YOU make money, but not ME? Already the split is showing.It will eventually be greed wins the day, modders will change the way they do things cynically based of making money. The users, should speak with their wallets, and NEVER entertain this disgusting act Valve and Bethesda (shame on them) have unleashed, a pandoras box, endorse and donate yes. Pay to play NO! Quote RJ the Shadow wrote: More like pay for the luxury of having it modded...sigh Quote 1erCru wrote: Rigmor you nailed it. This is real bad stuff. The money involved is just way too much. Greed never loses Quote icecreamassassin wrote: @BrumbekI too am very torn for sure. I've spent well over 5000 hours on my mod in the 1+ year it's been in development, have a half million views, 100K downloads, 2000 endorsements and maybe $120 in total donations? if I were working at McDonalds during that entire time instead of modding I could have made over $20,000. Yes I do mod because I enjoy it, but I think the VAST majority of users takes us for granted under the pretense of it being a community aimed effort, which I am very big on, but the fact of the matter is that most people won't pay for anything they can get for free if given the choice, sad fact of the matter. I do think though that the lack of exposure of the donation option is at least a little to blame. Half of folks who would donate don't even notice it and I know that if it popped up a little more often like on the download sever like the endorsement reminder does, more folks might give a few dollars. I know I certainly didn't notice the button until a user asked if I accepted them and then I looked into it and realized I could set the button up.It's a hard thing because there are so many legal and ethical ramifications to consider Quote HeloMAN wrote: +1 To Rigmor.How many mods use SKSE or other assets that aren't theirs? It's unfair to take payment for something you may have spent alot of time on...but isn't all yours. Rigmor you earn mine and many other's respect.While I currenlt don't use your mod (and never have), I may in the future, and when I do I will surely hand a few dollars over as thanks for your work if you accept donations. Don't cave in like these greedy traitors.While I can understand some people's "need" to make some money off their work, theres just too many things wrong with it. Plus, if they really can't work on their mods because of limitations, then stop. Modding is about the enjoyment, not about money, and if you cease to enjoy it or simply cannot do it, then stop.EDIT: LOL one of my posts was deleted, nice censorship nexus mods! Can't believe they are supporting steam's workshop BS. Quote ambria wrote: I'm very skeptical that even the biggest of the big modders could "get rich" from this.Because of the aforementioned drop off from free to pay wall, plus the 75% cut taken.It would have to be a very big and popular mod, and those normally include a lot of mod resources, voice actors, quality insurance testers, you name it, and the mod author would have to be giving all those a cut??I think the best a mod author could hope to make out of this would equate to minimum wage when compared to the hours they put in.But I could be wrong, I guess we'll see Quote ramccoid wrote: We are here to play a game, it's a game not life. We mod to make the game more enjoyable and we share that experience, so others can enjoy the difference we have made. Where does money come in to it. Quote antipax wrote: 1erCru: 2 million downloads over a few years, and unless he removed SMIM from the Nexus, people will still download the free, old version from here, not to mention who already downloaded it won't have to download it again, especially just for an update as it works pretty well. Quote RiffyDivine wrote: You've got to remember that if a high price is set for a type of mod, let's say armor mods. If I charge 25 USD for it then the next guy to upload one will go s#*! I like 25 USD also then you set a standard of high prices and people will pay it making it a standard. I'd sooner pay you to not be on steam. Quote iceburg wrote: You're mod is a delight and a necessity. It scares me that someone may realize the profit in stealing other peoples mods and placing them up for sale on steam. Now we mod authors need to monitor our mods on the nexus, and on steam, or someone could profit from our work!Seems like a nightmare situation to me. Quote jediakyrol wrote: holy crap, man...don't know how I've passed over your mod before...I am downloading, endorsing, and sending you a fiver right now! Quote mcguffin wrote: Just a thought:Endorsements show the number of people who actually care enough to just click something to say thank you, so people who will give money will be far lower, imho Quote Brumbek wrote: @Rigmor: great points. Charging for mods does suddenly make us competitors. I obviously can't say your whole group deserves less than my mod. I would never want to imply my mod deserves anything. But this is the nature of the free market I suppose. People will pay for one thing over another. And often what people pay for is less deserving than something else. Valve are masters of getting people to pay for dumb stuff. CS:GO knives prove the insanity of the human mind.@icecreamassassin: point taken.Now I'm even more torn than ever! Thanks guys!! ;) At the end of the day though, the honest truth is I've come back to modding today because of this announcement...I'd like to think not out of greed but just...practicality? Quote mkess wrote: Maybe the donation button should be a button direct behind the download button, with "If you like this mod, donate" Or something like that, with direct use of paypal. As a matter of fact, paypal was fdeveloped exactly for that reason.The button to be able to pay someone for his time and efforts should be more in palin side, and it should be worked into the mod-manager, too. Directly beside the endorse function. Because if you think about endorsing something, you are only one step away from spending a little money on it. And make it very easy to spend money. No registration. Only ONE click. I sometimes do not give any money at all, if I have to register with at least 10 data fields. Holy crap, are the insane? It should be as easy as taking a coin out of my purse, and gve it to someone.That's my oppinion. Quote Teria23 wrote: I think you may get more people to donate if you simply state that you won't move SMIM over to the Dark Side, no matter how many cookies they offer... Quote NoDebate wrote: Brumbek, I love SMIM. It's on my list with SkyUI and SKSE as mods I install regardless. All three are quintessential to improving the overall Skyrim experience. They're absolutely necessary. SMIM is high quality, unobtrusive, and fixes a great many things noticed (and appreciated) by those of us with an eye for detail. That said, charging two bucks for SMIM is not greedy. I find it to be reasonable for the work you've put into the project.However, as the current Steam Workshop model stands, a two dollar price tag turns into some fifty cents for you, given your work manages to sell so many copies. What has been offered up by Steam in exchange for taking the other 1.50? A little bit of advertising? A self regulated market? What has been offered by Bethesda for failing to provide appropriate meshes in the first place? Are they providing staff to assist you in creating, maintaining, or troubleshooting SMIM? I'm having a hard time now justifying the two bucks, knowing that 1.50 is going to plop on top of the eighty-some (for the game + DLC) I've given to some combination of Valve and Bethesda.I sympathize with your current position. You see an opportunity for some compensation and want that. I get it. What human being doesn't want to be formally recognized and compensated for their artistic work? Popular artistic work. Why do YouTubers doing mod spotlights make a bit of cash and you don't? Fifty cents is better than zero cents, right? Perhaps. However (and now I will fear-monger a bit), what does that 1.50 communicate in the long run? That a team of professionals can skip by on low-poly meshes and let ole' Brumbek fix up their Nuka-Cola machines in Fallout 4 with his FMIM? Take a 75% cut of his pricetag to boot? Smells like fishsticks to me.All this comes with a million and one questions regarding a "self-regulated market." To name a few... What determines the pricetag on a mod? As you've said and as I've seen, we already have minor cosmetics for a couple bucks as the recommended price tag. Chesko's Art of the Catch is essentially Skyrim Mod Early Access. Is there any accountability there? What determines a completed mod? Stable mod? Compatible mod? Can we trade mods on the Steam Market? Am I refunded if a mod no longer satisfies certain requirements? Am I refunded if a mod is no longer maintained? You get my point. I don't have any strong feelings regarding what you should do. I appreciate you communicating your concerns to the 'general public' and would welcome the opportunity to continue the discussion. In closing, I'll offer you a bit of background on myself. I have been playing Bethesda games since the release of Daggerfall. I will be coming up on twenty years here real quick. I'm in the middle of (yet another) Morrowind playthrough. Loaded to the gills with mods. I have mods saved on my portable drive from the PlanetElderScrolls days. We're talking at least ten years (go check out the Morrowind Mod History site). Everything from Morrowind Rebirth to the House of Armors. Modding is the life's blood of any Bethesda game, it's the only thing that allows me to play Morrowind here in 2015. I understand that no one works for free, I understand the thousands of hours people pour into intricate creations that rival (and often far out-do) the work of professionals but, the expectation is that this work has been done out of the passion of the series, Elder Scrolls or Fallout. That's what makes mods superior to any DLC Bethesda decides to vomit our way. Establishing a monetized modding scene goes a long way towards soaking up that passion. It also has me very concerned for the pending release of Fallout 4. Quote Brumbek wrote: @NoDebate: great points, NoDebate (ah, the irony). You do have a good point about what it communicates if I let Valve/Bethesda take the large portion of my efforts. But my efforts would be impossible without their efforts. Ultimately, they take the majority of the money because *they can*. Those with the power, dictate the rules.The question I still wonder: will charging on Steam Workshop truly worsen modding? Again, it will be the charlatans and the greedy who overrun Steam Workshop, ultimately ruining it for everyone. So yes, should someone like me, a self-proclaimed nice guy who just loves modding, join the ugly fray? I don't know...I have these delusions that maybe the masses will recognize quality. Maybe I'm too optimistic. Thanks again, keep the discussion going. Quote Monkeynutz76 wrote: as a part time modder myself I'm having the same delema many have donated there hard earned funds in thanks to my various mods on mount and blade FONV and skyrim but i find Very few donate .. even when they post how wonderful the mod is and heap praise upon my many hours .. sometimes months or in one case years of work ... while it is true i do it out of some sort of twisted love and desire to produce excellence in each of my mods ... yes im being cagey about which ones as many have an X disclaimer here .....the thought of being paid each download is appealing i wont deny. however i still believe that you should not be forced to pay for something you may not enjoy .... perhaps a trial period for each mod could offset the instant pain for each mod as well as a maximum fee cap so some of the greedy types can be controlled im not an advocate for the PAY TO PLAY system we are being forced to swallow like a load of ....that being said instant gratification is rather nice Quote icecreamassassin wrote: On the note about competition there is literally nothing stopping modders from imitating one another's work and then basically undercutting them. Another thing to think about.While some people don't see it as being so bad to charge 1-2 dollars for their mod, they forget that you only get 25% of that. And ONLY if you make 100 dollars or more on your mod. So if you don't even make 100 dollars every month, you get nothing.And to top that off, the one thing they don't consider, your reputation. Communities have a deep hatred for people who put their mods behind a pay wall. So not only will you only be getting a few cents here and there, your reputation will be tarnished badly.Look at people like Isoku who did Wet and Cold. Their comments have been pruned and locked for all the stuff people have said once they found out the new updated was behind a pay wall. They are being harassed and have become the poster boy/example for paid mods on many other forums right now. A modder that people respected, their reputation is ruined now because of this.So while I get that you would like to make a buck here and there for your hard work, think about not only the money but what is going to happen to your rep if you do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdanPasos Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 (edited) Your articles, Dark0ne, always a pleasure to read. And I hope you feel welcome in Spain anyway regardless of the shitty internet speed connections we have in most hotels and public places. :p I'm kind of new here, got lured here by mods about Fallout 3 and X Rebirth, I love the work you and many modders do here, so indeed regardless of the path some modders may take, you guys deserve respect. Edited April 23, 2015 by AdanPasos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fnhatic Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 (edited) In response to post #24570034. Reveal hidden contents Quote AncientGamer65 wrote: As if mod drama wasn't bad enough.Frostfall itself has a big list of 'thanks to ___ for ___'. If I were one of those people I would C&D the s#*! out of the author and rip all of my content out. Edited April 23, 2015 by Uranium - 235 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boulegue Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 In response to post #24568539. #24568669, #24569369, #24570024 are all replies on the same post. Reveal hidden contents Quote AceeQ wrote: Quote boulegue wrote: dota started as a mod, counter strike started as a mod, team fortress started as a mod..... its been a business for well over 10 years just very little people could make money with it Quote CaedesAposis wrote: Microtransactioning Single-Player RPG games is one surefire way to kill a persons interest in a franchise.I appreciate the fact AceeQ will maintain his mods for free.I encourage folks to hunt around and snap up any older mods these "paid mods" authors have lying around on the Nexus and hold onto them. No matter what they say about "Oh, we won't ever charge for those" do not believe them. Grab them, and go. And if they start charging for them, share your copy then.Do not encourage this disturbing trend of micro transactions, encourage DONATIONS. Quote gonzalo99 wrote: Wet and Cold is already for 5 bucks in the workshop. So yes, I'd advice to download the mods here while you can IF you do not support this initiative.While I don't think this is absolutely detrimental for the gaming community, the fact that most of our money will go to Valve, compatibility issues, problems with copyrights and other modder's resources, overpricing and consequent inflation, etc makes me doubt this move was thoroughly planned by Valve and Bethesda. If Wet and Cold is 5$ RIGHT NOW, how much should the Immersive NPC's team charge for such a MASSIVE mod? 20 bucks seems fair. But 20 bucks means basically a new game. I would probably not download it.Will they provide a top notch mod manager for us to use? Will modders care about compatibility issues with other fellow modders? (from now on, competitors?).On the other hand, oblivion and Skyrim mods gave me at the very least a thousand of new content, and many more provided ways for me to enjoy vanilla content even more. Maybe it would be fair to pay for the mods I truly like. I think I should start modding in order to repay this wonderful community for once. the $5 is a suggested price you can go as little as $1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest deleted1768697 Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 One of the worst news for tha last time.This will ruin games modding comunity, and, as result, will greatly reduce popularity of Bethesda games. This is awful. This is real nightmare.I hope thay will stop this as soon as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fnhatic Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 So you have a 24 hour period to determine if it's worth it or not. 1) Buy Frostfall v2.0 2) Grab the mod. 3) Claim it didn't work. 4) Repackage and distribute. Problem solved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LegitWARHAMMER Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 I personally kind of like the idea of the paid modding, well not entirely I think that there should be an option to donate to the mod, because a lot of mods are sadly quit being worked on and if people donate those mods could really end up showing there full potential. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naznaczony Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 I don't like this idea too.But guys please don't act like animals we are better than this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krauserpt Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 There is a petition already guys, sign in, idk if i cant put a link so just google it "Remove the paid content of the Steam Workshop" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killerkerberos6 Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 (edited) In response to post #24569549. #24569809, #24570254 are all replies on the same post. Reveal hidden contents Quote RavegedPyro wrote: Quote boulegue wrote: there already is one (i didnt know about it until today either) but not all modders mod for fun... Quote boulegue wrote: enderal & the TESrenewal stuff will stay free cheesko says in his letter to the community that he will release all his mods on the nexus for free after a certain period of time.... so if you cant pay with money you can pay with timei don't think many big DLC sized mods will be released on the workshop it'll be a giant pain in the ass since everyone who worked on the mod be it writer, coder, artist, VA..... will be entitled to a share and with a 25% share thats probably more work then worth doingMy issue is that I like mods because a lot of them -though not all- are the size of small DLC, but free. Now we'll probably get nickle and dimed after we purchase the game not only through DLC, but mods as well.They were my only safe haven for extra content without having to shell out more money after buying a $60 game that had less content of a 10 year old $15 game. Now see, if it were a very polished mod that's the size of an expansion, then yeah I'll chip in. But, no way in hell am I buying an armor set for $5. I already stay away from that crap when it comes to DLC that comes out alongside the game, I don't need more of that in the mod scene too. Edited April 23, 2015 by killerkerberos6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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