On console mods, theft and Bethesda.net

[AntariAkiyama]

There really needs to be a "lock for editing" system implemented into the Creation Kit (kinda like on GTA mods) so that you can't edit or re post a mod unless you created it

[Dheuster]

As to who owns mods, I believe the answer is both the author and Bethesda own a portion of the mod. It is a combined work. Like a car that contains parts patented by several different people. A mod is a binary file that contains assets owned by both the mod author and Bethesda. In order for either the mod author or Bethesda to do ANYTHING with it, a agreement has to be reached.

 

Bethesda's EULA lays out some blanket scenarios were you can distribute the combined work without having to contact them. Simply put: as long as it remains free. The EULA also has a clause saying if you upload the mod to Bethesda.net, that you implicitly grant Bethesda permission to distribute the mod (and any owned assets) for free. But it does not imply transfer of ownership of your assets.

 

As for money, if I want to make money off a mod, the Eula says I need to contact Bethesda and work out the details. It isn't just about permission, it is about profit sharing. How much of the mod is simply re-cycled Bethesda assets and how much of the mod is new uniq content. There is a world of difference between a mod that adds a new Pip-Boy TV plugin that streams youtube videos and a mod that simply makes the dog sit.

 

[UnitD77]

I see this theme alot. Devs make a game, It's a good game and we like it. Then people play it and have their interpretation of the game and how everything feels and whats lore friendly and such. Then you see some "behind the scene" video at the studio and you hear "we are all gamers too" as the Devs tell you how much they like playing games too.

But

Then you get problems like Bethesda's modding moderation where people who are supposed to be gamers and enjoy playing the game like everyone else, somehow do not know the game like everyone else. Nexus is the place to get mods. If they truly played the game "like everyone else" then they would know this and honestly shouldn't have even tried to make their own site, Would have been easier to link the Nexus to consoles.

I hate it when you see a dev who plays the game in a way completely different from anyone else i have ever seen, and yet they tout their "I'm a gamer just like you" line and It rings false for me, because I have never see anyone play in a well lit room while sitting up straight, It just aint natural.

I joke he he

Seriously though, If they were gamers like me I would expect them to enjoy the game in similar ways, such as downloading mods from nexus or steam. Then I would assume they would notice the hard work the nexus team puts into the site and then attempt to mirror that when they try to make their own site.

Edited July 24, 2016 by UnitD77

[JumpStart57]

I've been a console player for years, long before I played PC, now I play both, and while mods on xbox are cool and all, there just isnt all that much compared to PC. People that upload other people's mods to Bethesda.net are idiots, people that say xbox doesnt deserve mods are idiots, and people that think they can do whatever the f*#@ the want are idiots. I try and stay away from mods I've seen on the nexus, unless it is reuploaded by an account with the same name as the nexus creator, and even then I try and stick to original-newly made mods. To my fellow console players: be careful what you download. You could be supporting a thief, and if not truly optimized it could f*#@ over your game

[Rethrain]

"5,100 words. I’m done."

 

*abruptly wakes up*

 

Me : I was listening to the lecture, I was listening!

 

*looks around, class ended hours ago, only a forlorn empty lecture hall remains and voices in the distance.*

 

Oh..er...ahem.

Edited July 26, 2016 by Rethrain

[Chasenyx]

In response to post #40671960. #40689680 is also a reply to the same post.

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JZSquared wrote: Personally I believe that Bethesda didn't see much promise in modding in the early days and probably viewed it as a novelty. Now that it has become such a big thing and that it's being sought after so heavily by the console community, they have to change their perspective. And honestly, I believe that Bethesda sees this as an opportunity to cash in. I believe the creation of Bethesda.net was a way to cut Steam out of the profits of paid modding, so they could keep more for themselves. Also it's a way to reach console users who have no alternative to receive mods for their system. Thus forcing them to have to buy from Bethesda's service, when the time comes. So after the many years all of you have spent building up the modding community and providing invaluable resources, Bethesda is here to take advantage of everyone's hard work. With this they took the same approach that Steam first did, which was a huge mistake. They are attempting to make the system completely automatic to save money, so they don't have to hire additional staff. This of course will not work and instead of learning from others mistakes, they'll just make the same ones again.

Also I would just like to add that if they have an incompetent system in place, they can then keep the mods up for longer and so with paid modding earn more money. Just some food for thought.

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Therobwil wrote: that is F'ing terrifying... maybe I should be against the 'Special Edition' rather than neutral about it.

That would actually make a lot of sense, I felt this with Fallout 4, or it's my imagination, that they gave us a somewhat unfisnished project and counted on the modders to do it right.
I mean it just felt like that for me.
Now with other people doing the actual work Bethesda should do, like bug fixing and developing good content, they still see this as a gold ore.
I understand console useres for their want/need of mods, because they're a very good addition and it shames me to think that Bethasda would use this to their benefit. I always thought very highly of them, which sadly started to change with the whole 'paid-modding on steam' fiasco.
That was some very good food for my thoughts, thank you for sharing your opinion :)

[Arthmoor]

In response to post #40671960. #40689680, #40841275 are all replies on the same post.

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JZSquared wrote: Personally I believe that Bethesda didn't see much promise in modding in the early days and probably viewed it as a novelty. Now that it has become such a big thing and that it's being sought after so heavily by the console community, they have to change their perspective. And honestly, I believe that Bethesda sees this as an opportunity to cash in. I believe the creation of Bethesda.net was a way to cut Steam out of the profits of paid modding, so they could keep more for themselves. Also it's a way to reach console users who have no alternative to receive mods for their system. Thus forcing them to have to buy from Bethesda's service, when the time comes. So after the many years all of you have spent building up the modding community and providing invaluable resources, Bethesda is here to take advantage of everyone's hard work. With this they took the same approach that Steam first did, which was a huge mistake. They are attempting to make the system completely automatic to save money, so they don't have to hire additional staff. This of course will not work and instead of learning from others mistakes, they'll just make the same ones again.

Also I would just like to add that if they have an incompetent system in place, they can then keep the mods up for longer and so with paid modding earn more money. Just some food for thought.

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Therobwil wrote: that is F'ing terrifying... maybe I should be against the 'Special Edition' rather than neutral about it.

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Chasenyx wrote: That would actually make a lot of sense, I felt this with Fallout 4, or it's my imagination, that they gave us a somewhat unfisnished project and counted on the modders to do it right.
I mean it just felt like that for me.
Now with other people doing the actual work Bethesda should do, like bug fixing and developing good content, they still see this as a gold ore.
I understand console useres for their want/need of mods, because they're a very good addition and it shames me to think that Bethasda would use this to their benefit. I always thought very highly of them, which sadly started to change with the whole 'paid-modding on steam' fiasco.
That was some very good food for my thoughts, thank you for sharing your opinion :)

Conspiracy theories are lame.

[BeckyRAT]

This is why I've not used Bethesda.net, even FOR my PC mods. I don't trust the mods on there. I don't want to go hunt down a mod that's on there to make sure it's not stolen. Nexus will be my go-to site for mods, simply because of how you guys respond to mod theft. (sometimes, you're a bit over the top, but I'd prefer that to not doing jack s#*!.)

 

Bethesda does seem to see this as just another cash in. And it's super saddening for the community as a whole.

[DarkTl]

In response to post #39832980. #40268845, #40275465, #40295955, #40487115, #40516110, #40547280, #40548270, #40563460, #40576465, #40616490 are all replies on the same post.

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marc5477 wrote: It is my understand that mods rights are owned by Bethesda, not the author, as long as the mod does not break any sort of copyright law. Are you sure you aren't getting upset over nothing?

Since you dont own your own mod, what difference does it make to you, if someone does something to it without permission? You will never make money from it and you will not get famous from it (any more, since its so easy to do compared to the old days). So whats the point?

If you want to make money from game assets then by all means sell the assets and there are many ways to do that but dont put them into someone elses game without reading the contract for doing so. If someone took one of my mods I wouldnt care one bit as long as they are not making money from my work and they are not getting famous from it. If either of those ever happen, you always have a legal recourse. The only thing I ever asked is to just give me credit somewhere in the doc that I at least exist lol.

Have the rules changed since Morrowind?

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Nitrate55 wrote: And what if they're not giving you credit when they take your work? Or, better yet, they're claiming every bit of your work for themselves, fooling people into believing that they are the ones who made it, that they're the ones who poured their hard work into it, and not you. I understand that you might not care, but there's a vast majority of people who do care about this kind of thing. People who cannot tolerate this kind of thing. For example, why would I want to continue creating my work at all if I know it's just going to get taken by someone else, that some thief out there is going to take credit for my work? I think it's enough to dissillusion some people from even modding at all in the first place

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Solongchu wrote: http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html Read this and you will see that Beth doesnt own your mods.

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RandomViolence222 wrote: Well modding would fall under derivative works, so yeah Bethesda owns your mods.

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JeorgErsteman wrote: Not even remotely.
Especially in this case, where Beth has themselves granted the right, and the tools to create based on the work.
Then by directing those who have had their works taken by other parties to file legal claims.. they have wiped their hands of any claim to ownership.
You don't have to even be a shithouse lawyer to see that.
Plus it simply gets down to right and wrong.
If Beth revoked 'free pass' to mod their core program, they could then stipulate that any works are theirs. But, it still would be theft then if anyone posted any creation not their own anywhere.. as now they would be claiming, posting Beth's now declared property.. so no matter how you slice it.. if YOU didn't make it.. it aint yours to do anything with.

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PirateZ86 wrote: No, Beth owns your mods. watch

. Read the EULA again.

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mathiascronqvist wrote: RTFPost

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FishBiter wrote: I mean did you even read the giant article up there? He covers this. He covers every single thing you said, and you're wrong... on every count.

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wakkytabbaky wrote: those that say they wouldnt care if their mod was stolen / uploaded under someone elses name obviously has not spent the long hours of putting together a mod and being frustrated at every little problem that arises.

people that mod dont wake up in the morning and say today is a great day to create a mod for someone to steal

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chuckles0000 wrote: That has already been covered. and even if bethesda were to pull some legal loophole, they would face immediate public backlash or worse.

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Calinaas wrote: @Nitrate55 Actually there is a way to prove someone stole your work. It's the easiest way in the book.. check the time stamps of both mods. There's your proof. If someone was taking my mods and charging people for it they've already broken the law and Bethesda can technically sue them for it, also if the person who stole the mod tried everything in their power to pretend and lie they made it first. The time stamps don't lie. All I'd have to do is show people or the community my mod was uploaded first. I'm not saying it's okay to steal people's work. I'm just saying trying to prove it's stolen shouldn't be difficult.

Uhh, time stamps? You locally change time and date on your pc and then resave the mod and all its files. Moreover, there is soft that allows you to change any files attributes, including time of creation and editing.

And if you propose to check time of uploading to bethesda.aids, it is not a proof, since a thief could do it sooner than the author. Edited July 27, 2016 by DarkTl

[Superbrony64]

In response to post #39832980. #40268845, #40275465, #40295955, #40487115, #40516110, #40547280, #40548270, #40563460, #40576465, #40616490, #40860170 are all replies on the same post.

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marc5477 wrote: It is my understand that mods rights are owned by Bethesda, not the author, as long as the mod does not break any sort of copyright law. Are you sure you aren't getting upset over nothing?

Since you dont own your own mod, what difference does it make to you, if someone does something to it without permission? You will never make money from it and you will not get famous from it (any more, since its so easy to do compared to the old days). So whats the point?

If you want to make money from game assets then by all means sell the assets and there are many ways to do that but dont put them into someone elses game without reading the contract for doing so. If someone took one of my mods I wouldnt care one bit as long as they are not making money from my work and they are not getting famous from it. If either of those ever happen, you always have a legal recourse. The only thing I ever asked is to just give me credit somewhere in the doc that I at least exist lol.

Have the rules changed since Morrowind?

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Nitrate55 wrote: And what if they're not giving you credit when they take your work? Or, better yet, they're claiming every bit of your work for themselves, fooling people into believing that they are the ones who made it, that they're the ones who poured their hard work into it, and not you. I understand that you might not care, but there's a vast majority of people who do care about this kind of thing. People who cannot tolerate this kind of thing. For example, why would I want to continue creating my work at all if I know it's just going to get taken by someone else, that some thief out there is going to take credit for my work? I think it's enough to dissillusion some people from even modding at all in the first place

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Solongchu wrote: http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html Read this and you will see that Beth doesnt own your mods.

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RandomViolence222 wrote: Well modding would fall under derivative works, so yeah Bethesda owns your mods.

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JeorgErsteman wrote: Not even remotely.
Especially in this case, where Beth has themselves granted the right, and the tools to create based on the work.
Then by directing those who have had their works taken by other parties to file legal claims.. they have wiped their hands of any claim to ownership.
You don't have to even be a shithouse lawyer to see that.
Plus it simply gets down to right and wrong.
If Beth revoked 'free pass' to mod their core program, they could then stipulate that any works are theirs. But, it still would be theft then if anyone posted any creation not their own anywhere.. as now they would be claiming, posting Beth's now declared property.. so no matter how you slice it.. if YOU didn't make it.. it aint yours to do anything with.

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PirateZ86 wrote: No, Beth owns your mods. watch

. Read the EULA again.

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mathiascronqvist wrote: RTFPost

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FishBiter wrote: I mean did you even read the giant article up there? He covers this. He covers every single thing you said, and you're wrong... on every count.

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wakkytabbaky wrote: those that say they wouldnt care if their mod was stolen / uploaded under someone elses name obviously has not spent the long hours of putting together a mod and being frustrated at every little problem that arises.

people that mod dont wake up in the morning and say today is a great day to create a mod for someone to steal

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chuckles0000 wrote: That has already been covered. and even if bethesda were to pull some legal loophole, they would face immediate public backlash or worse.

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Calinaas wrote: @Nitrate55 Actually there is a way to prove someone stole your work. It's the easiest way in the book.. check the time stamps of both mods. There's your proof. If someone was taking my mods and charging people for it they've already broken the law and Bethesda can technically sue them for it, also if the person who stole the mod tried everything in their power to pretend and lie they made it first. The time stamps don't lie. All I'd have to do is show people or the community my mod was uploaded first. I'm not saying it's okay to steal people's work. I'm just saying trying to prove it's stolen shouldn't be difficult.

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DarkTl wrote: Uhh, time stamps? You locally change time and date on your pc and then resave the mod and all its files. Moreover, there is soft that allows you to change any files attributes, including time of creation and editing.

And if you propose to check time of uploading to bethesda.aids, it is not a proof, since a thief could do it sooner than the author.

Sure they can do it sooner than the author but if the Timestamp of when it went onto Nexus Mods server says say 12:46 June 8 2015 and the Timestamp of when it went to Bethesdas server said 14:16 July 20 2016. You can clearly see where the original came from. Also BETHESDA DOES NOT OWN YOUR MODS!!! When you put them through the creation kit Bethesda receives a LICENSE to do whatever they want with it. BUT that can be revoked by the OWNER WHICH IS THE MOD MAKER by pulling the mod from the server and telling bethesda to f*#@ off. In other words bethesda can use it but they CANT own it.