Managing the Load Order...

[Tannin42]

Because it's MY COMPUTER, not YOUR COMPUTER, and I can do whatever i damn well please?

 

I hate this mentality that "big brother knows best" and wants to prevent stupid ol' me from having control over my own s***.

 

Also, even if we assume that you are correct, what happens when the algorithms make mistakes? When a new mod comes out and doesn't nicely fit into the categories? That these "rules" don't apply properly? The program just flat out breaks and puts my mod in the wrong place?

 

No, I'm not letting a computer program have the final say. If I see a clear mistake, a mod that is out of place, I don't want to wait for an algorithm to fix it and I don't want to tinker with some settings for 20 minutes. I just want to look at the mod and say to myself "I don't want that there" and just drag and drop it.

 

I truly don't understand why anyone would be against this. Unless you think I'm too dumb, despite having modded dozens of games for the past 7 years. Big Brother knows best, eh?

 

a) Well it's our software, not your software. We can do whatever we damn well please with it. you have the choice to use it or not, no one is forcing you.

 

Our mission is to provide the best mod manager we can for as many users as we can that is also considerate of the mod authors. Yes, this may mean that the mod manager may not be perfect for every individual, how could it?

You attacking people, screaming at people, suggesting we somehow have sinister motives is entirely unwarranted so please first calm down and try for a level-headed debate

 

b) Vortex is built to be extensible, an extension provided by a third party that would allow directly manipulation of the plugin order is possible, we wouldn't stand in its way. We just don't intend to put in the work because we feel it's not necessary and there are better things to do with our limited time budget.

So far, afaict, everyone who thought about working on it eventually came to agree that the vortex approach works just fine.

 

c) You seem to generally misunderstand how load ordering in Vortex works. The algorithm doesn't have the last word, the algorithm has the first word, the community maintained masterlist (which we do not control) has the second word and you, using the userlist or indexlock you have the last word. Always.

The only thing you can legitimately bemoan is that in certain fringe cases the Vortex approach may be more tedious than the old way but in no way do we take any control away from you.

d)

look at the mod and say to myself "I don't want that there"

 

 

No offense but this very statement shows that the automated load ordering is exactly for you. Load ordering has to be based on record conflicts, otherwise you may cause your game to break in more or less obvious ways. It's absolutely impossible, no matter how experienced you are, to determine through a mere look at a plugin where it could go without causing problems.

 

If this was your problem alone, we could just shrug and leave you to your woe but this is a community, people ask for help when they get problems (as they should) and thereby make their problem the problem of others.

It may be your computer but the moment you ask for help on the forum or discord or reddit or wherever or you give bad advise to others, your actions no longer affect just you.

[Dahveed]

I've been respectful in my posts. I said the word "idiotic" once, because that is truly how I feel about the system.

 

If that is all it takes to get you upset, I suggest you quit the Internet forever. I'm talking about ideas and systems, not people. And yes, I happen to think that not giving users a very simple option to drag and drop something is pretty idiotic. (You could even hide this as a toggled feature in some sort of advanced settings tab so complete novices couldn't abuse it).

 

I mean if you want me to be even more PC and respectful and saintly, I could replace "idiotic idea" with "very very very very very very bad idea" and maybe that wouldn't ruffle anyone's feathers?

 

As both a mod user and mod maker (my mods aren't exactly steller but I have many) I am always respectful towards people on these forums... I'm quite surprised how I'm being repeatedly lambasted in the comments as some sort of rude jerk because I'm stating a strong opinion using a very basic human word, which isn't even a cuss word.

 

I guess I'll take note, next time I come on the Nexus forums I'll bring the kiddie gloves, I'm very, very sorry if I hurt anyone's feelings with my meanie-head use of the word "idiocy".

[Dahveed]

 

Because it's MY COMPUTER, not YOUR COMPUTER, and I can do whatever i damn well please?

 

I hate this mentality that "big brother knows best" and wants to prevent stupid ol' me from having control over my own s***.

 

Also, even if we assume that you are correct, what happens when the algorithms make mistakes? When a new mod comes out and doesn't nicely fit into the categories? That these "rules" don't apply properly? The program just flat out breaks and puts my mod in the wrong place?

 

No, I'm not letting a computer program have the final say. If I see a clear mistake, a mod that is out of place, I don't want to wait for an algorithm to fix it and I don't want to tinker with some settings for 20 minutes. I just want to look at the mod and say to myself "I don't want that there" and just drag and drop it.

 

I truly don't understand why anyone would be against this. Unless you think I'm too dumb, despite having modded dozens of games for the past 7 years. Big Brother knows best, eh?

 

a) Well it's our software, not your software. We can do whatever we damn well please with it. you have the choice to use it or not, no one is forcing you.

 

Our mission is to provide the best mod manager we can for as many users as we can that is also considerate of the mod authors. Yes, this may mean that the mod manager may not be perfect for every individual, how could it?

You attacking people, screaming at people, suggesting we somehow have sinister motives is entirely unwarranted so please first calm down and try for a level-headed debate

 

b) Vortex is built to be extensible, an extension provided by a third party that would allow directly manipulation of the plugin order is possible, we wouldn't stand in its way. We just don't intend to put in the work because we feel it's not necessary and there are better things to do with our limited time budget.

So far, afaict, everyone who thought about working on it eventually came to agree that the vortex approach works just fine.

 

c) You seem to generally misunderstand how load ordering in Vortex works. The algorithm doesn't have the last word, the algorithm has the first word, the community maintained masterlist (which we do not control) has the second word and you, using the userlist or indexlock you have the last word. Always.

The only thing you can legitimately bemoan is that in certain fringe cases the Vortex approach may be more tedious than the old way but in no way do we take any control away from you.

d)

look at the mod and say to myself "I don't want that there"

 

 

No offense but this very statement shows that the automated load ordering is exactly for you. Load ordering has to be based on record conflicts, otherwise you may cause your game to break in more or less obvious ways. It's absolutely impossible, no matter how experienced you are, to determine through a mere look at a plugin where it could go without causing problems.

 

If this was your problem alone, we could just shrug and leave you to your woe but this is a community, people ask for help when they get problems (as they should) and thereby make their problem the problem of others.

It may be your computer but the moment you ask for help on the forum or discord or reddit or wherever or you give bad advise to others, your actions no longer affect just you.

 

 

 

There's a lot in there. Here goes.

 

a) Yes, of course it's your software and you can do whatever you want. I'm not arguing that. I'm just here giving my honest opinion (perhaps too brutally honest?).

 

"Our mission is to provide the best mod manager we can for as many users as we can that is also considerate of the mod authors" - wouldn't user feedback be an important part of this process?

 

b) I can't speak to what other people have said about it, perhaps the system works wonders. Who knows, maybe one day I'll change my mind. But when I googled this the first posts I found in various places were people complaining that they couldn't change their load order, thus suggesting people remain with MO. I think a LOT of users will have this complaint... but I'm not a fortune teller so who can say?

 

c) Again, you may be right, I cannot discount the possibility. I would love to be proven wrong and have Vortex (when it finally comes out) as the be-all-end-all of mod managers... but I still can't shake the feeling that removing a very, very basic function for control isn't a good idea. (In fact is a terrible one.)

 

d) I understand what you're trying to get across, but sometimes I WANT certain records to be overwritten. If I have two very similar mods which have slightly different functions, then I might WANT to change the order on a whim to test certain things, or just because I dunno, maybe one texture or another looks prettier and I want it to overwrite the other. Sure, if I understand correctly I'll still be able to do this by tinkering with "rules" or going into settings etc. But I'll repeat, WHY ON EARTH would you want to utterly destroy the beautiful simplicity of just being able to drag-and-drop mod (a) a third of an inch on my screen below mod (b)? Again, as I said add this option as a toggle in "advanced settings" so novices can't make stupid mistakes. (Sorry I used the word stupid, does that make me a bad guy?)

 

 

Finally, I just want to repeat that I'm not trying to come across as nasty or disrespectful. I'm just stating very bluntly what I see as a pretty obvious problem that a LOT of people will complain about, and already have in less-than-respectful terms on other forums.

[Tannin42]

Your posts include idiotic at least twice actually, you called a person "completely ridiculous", you called something that many have come to think of as a good idea "utterly idiotic" which implies a certain opinion of the people who do like it in line with the above.

You implied that Vortex, a software you get for free, quote "a disaster" and a "terrible idea".

You insinuated that Nexus tries to boss you around, acting like a "big brother".

In short: in 3 posts, you verbally attacked everyone and everything "on the other side" of the argument.

In addition you repeatedly used words in all caps which, in case you don't know, is the internet-equivalent of screaming hysterically.

 

If you actually believe you were being respectful to people, mate, you need therapy.

 

Anyway, both Dark0ne and myself gave you exhaustive replies to your argument. Dark0ne didn't even mention your rudeness afaict and I mentioned it in one line, so I can only take your last reply, which contains absolutely nothing pertaining to the actual topic as a sign that you've seen you were wrong and are too immature to just admit it. That's ok, someday you will grow up too.

[Dahveed]

@Tannin there may be some truth, I have already admitted in my second post that I came across too harshly, and have apologized twice.

 

But now you are also straw-manning me to some extent.

 

Yes I used the word idiotic, but if you want to read into that word that I therefore think everyone who agrees with it are all idiots, that's on you, not me.

 

I said the person was being ridiculous (i.e. in his post), that is not the same thing as calling him, as a person, ridiculous. There's some nuance there.

 

I didn't say Vortex was a disaster and a terrible idea, I said that one very specific aspect of this otherwise interesting program would be disastrous and a terrible idea. There is a huge difference.

 

"You insinuated Nexus tries to boss you around" is an exaggeration. I insinuate that the program is too draconian and doesn't allow me enough control. It's different.

 

Yes, once I used a couple words in all caps. You are really upset about this?

 

 

I am willing to concede individual points and am ready to be proven wrong (I truly hope one day I am, because I was following Vortex with interest).

 

But I just can't believe the insane level of pearl-clutching that is going on in this thread. I've used strong language and apologized for it (twice), and you are still bringing it up... I find it ironic that someone criticizing me for using the word "idiotic" (pertaining to an IDEA, not a PERSON) purports to have the moral high ground in the same post wherein he tells me I need therapy and am immature, and needs to grow up.

 

I really, really dislike getting into these types of mini-flame wars. I've tried already to see things from other people's point of view, and yeah I already conceded that I came across too harsh, even though I think you're overreacting... Can we not just drop the virtue-signalling pretense?

 

I've conceded that I was too harsh and apologized twice. AND I've conceded that I might be wrong about Vortex, but I'm still trying to argue my point of view without just entirely capitulating.

 

You just don't want to give me a chance: Despite my apologies and my willingness to admit I might be wrong, you just want to box me into some sort of entitled tantrum-throwing leecher category with no redemption, and it's disheartening. Can you not meet me half way and give someone online the benefit of the doubt? Or should I follow your advice and go get "therapy"? (Which is a pretty heinous insult, by the way, because I actually do know people who have serious mental illness, and far more egregious than calling a system/idea "idiotic".)

 

Please, sincerely, have a nice day, and let's just move on and let bygones be bygones.

[Dark0ne]

I really, really dislike getting into these types of mini-flame wars.

 

 

And yet, here you are, digging that hole further.

 

In fact, both Tannin and I gave you some extensive answers to the points you made and yet you have focused a lot more of your time trying to defend yourself than you have actually responding to what we said in regards to Vortex. You even dedicated an entire post to it before responding to the Vortex related issues. Do you not think that speaks volumes?

 

b) I can't speak to what other people have said about it, perhaps the system works wonders. Who knows, maybe one day I'll change my mind. But when I googled this the first posts I found in various places were people complaining that they couldn't change their load order, thus suggesting people remain with MO. I think a LOT of users will have this complaint... but I'm not a fortune teller so who can say?

 

 

We're well aware there are going to be people who instantly discount Vortex because it doesn't have this "simplest of features" before they've even tried it properly. These people are part and parcel of the modding community. Honestly, I couldn't give a hoot about those sorts of users.

 

I'm far more comfortable putting time, effort and money into creating tools for those users who are actually willing to put time into understanding Vortex and how we've done things and giving it "the benefit of the doubt" before they run off to forums and subreddits to decry Vortex. The others can stick with NMM, MO or any other mod manager they please. We'll continue plugging away at this and gaining a core group of users who like what we've done and who can combat the silly misinformation being spread by people who really have no clue. That's not to say that there won't be people who use Vortex extensively and decide they don't like it. That's "fine" if it comes from a position of extensive experience and understanding -- but we've already seen users spreading misinformation on Reddit who haven't even downloaded or used the software, or who used it for all of 2 minutes, saw there was no manual load ordering, and then never used it again. Those people we are happy to do without.

 

 

but I still can't shake the feeling that removing a very, very basic function for control isn't a good idea

 

 

I don't think you're quite getting it, still. We haven't removed control away from the user -- users still have absolute control. It's just done differently.

 

Ultimately, Vortex should save you a considerable amount of time by giving you either a fully working load order straight away without any alterations, or by giving you a very close to working order that requires a bit of minor tweaking. As such, the potentially slightly extra time you spend setting up rules will be massively offset by the time savings made via the automated process that you otherwise wouldn't have had if you were manually ordering your entire mod list. If you continue to add more mods to your setup as you go along those rules will save you more time later on down the line as well.

[Ethreon]

"b) I can't speak to what other people have said about it, perhaps the system works wonders."

 

 

Here's from someone that doesn't agree with the system used - tested Vortex, gave my feedback, decided it's not for me, uninstalled and move on instead of making a bunch of really angry posts about it.

[Dahveed]

Well, sorry (for the third time) if I come across as "really angry". Maybe it does "say something" about me, when I feel like I've been unfairly boxed into a category of an "angry complainer". A lot of context is lost when we have nothing but text to go on.

 

I'm sure that if we were all sitting around in our living rooms having this discussion face-to-face there would be no doubt about intentions and things would remain civil (despite everything I think they ARE civil, which is part of my point).

 

@Dark0ne You may be right, I'm probably making mountains out of molehills. It's just that respect is important to me, and I feel I've been mischaracterized in this thread as just some angry dude intentionally spewing nonsense. I can give Vortex another shot at some point, but all I can say is that in my own experience (I tried it for about three hours total on my *fully functional* MO2 Oblivion install), it 100% completely massacred my fully functioning, flawless load order for Oblivion... and when I tried to figure out how to get the same load order in Vortex as I had in MO2 (which, again, worked flawlessly for the past four years) I couldn't do it.

 

I know things are still in early development, but perhaps a word of advice (respectfully) would be to be more clear in future builds about how the load order is handled and how we can control it. Because, I repeat, in my case it was an unmitigated disaster. I'm saying this speaking not from a position of pure expertise, but from several years of successful modding experience. I'm not just some arrogant scrub who wants to "plug and play" every mod immediately with no research and then whines when it doesn't work.

 

So just ask yourself: If a 7-year veteran of modding has a difficult time with Vortex, what do you think will happen when a "how-do-you-do-I-just-bought-my-PC-last-week-and-I-want-to-try-this-new-modding-thing" user stumbles along? Maybe that's not even your target audience, I can respect that. That's up to you and your team.

 

I'm just trying to be constructive and offer my point of view... albeit harshly.

[Rattledagger]

what do you think will happen when a "how-do-you-do-I-just-bought-my-PC-last-week-and-I-want-to-try-this-new-modding-thing" user stumbles along?

 

My guess is the newcomer would have an advantage over us old-timers, since the newcomer has never used drag-and-drop to re-order the load-order.

[Darkf0rge]

I have found this new system wonderful so far. The main issue I have is the load order.

If an algorithmic way is superior, then fine, I am willing to keep an open mind. But I am following a guide which clearly recommends a specific load order and I am finding it near impossible to set it this way using the tools available, so if it's possible it's overly tedious., it's the first part of this software I haven't been able to get my head around so I don't know if its a design flaw or indication it needs to be the first bit documented.