Simple manual load ordering plz

[HadToRegister]

 

Sometimes I disagree with you, like with your decision to not support VR, even though there are PLENTY of users (like me) willing to help you with that, so you don't need to buy a setup yourself. I thought that was extremely short-sighted and stubborn.

 

 

It's BETHESDA's choice not to support VR, they've said so themselves.

 

https://uploadvr.com/bethesda-no-planned-mod-support-time-skyrim-vr-pc/

 

https://www.vrfocus.com/2017/11/no-go-on-vr-creation-club-content-for-fallout-4-and-skyrim-say-bethesda/

 

https://uploadvr.com/skyrim-vr-will-not-launch-mod-support/

[Zanderat]

You can turn off auto sorting in Vortex. If you did that and sorted by hand, wouldn't that work? It wouldn't be my preferred solution, but that should be a viable workaround.

[HadToRegister]

So what happens if you change your load order outside of Vortex? Wouldn't that work? You can turn off auto sorting in Vortex.

 

Not sure, but I'm forced to try it.

Heh, I remember you from way back on the Morrowind forums, back in 2003, were you also on TESSource, before it became the Nexus?

That makes me a 15+ year, not an 8+

[Tannin42]

I will see about posting feedback on github tonight.

 

Another, idea is to expand where we can drag the "Rule line" from just the icon to the whole plugin line. In a sense we drag and drop already, a dialogue pops up and we choose load after. Intuitively dragging the name of plugin down below another would be better - right?

 

I agree with that, unfortunately due to how the ui toolkit works and how we do extensions, this would be surprisingly hard to implement. I'm definitively going to work on better ways to visualize the plugin list and provide better ways to set rules but for the moment it works and other things are more urgent.

Btw.: There are two other ways to set rules that many have apparently not found: You can go to the "Manage Rules" dialog where you can pick the plugins from dropdowns, since you can search those dropdowns and they don't reset after you add a rule, this may be quicker than drag and drop.

Also you can click the dependencies icon, click edit and then the dependencies column turns into checkboxes. Once you confirm the plugin you clicked "Edit" on will load after all the ones you checked. This is a good way to batch-create rules when you need to set a lot of rules for a single mod, for example one you're working on.

 

The limiting factor is that LOOT can sort for compatibility only. If you want a certain mod to "win" for aesthetic reasons and the Cyclic interaction rule doesn't like it, then you are out of luck.

 

That's kind of the point. The load order is for compatibility only. I'm totally open to add another sorteable column for visual/aesthetic sorting or grouping. That column could be drag&drop editable and everything, but it would be entirely separate from load order.

 

If you're going to go down this road, why not mention that you know, and everyone else knows, VR is on an incompatible branch of code that doesn't support mods to begin with. So everyone "modding" VR is doing so outside of any actual provision for the activity. Which is basically you're taking a car, modifying it, and then expecting people like me who make stock parts to also support them when modified outside their specifications. Not gonna happen in any sane world.

 

That's what almost all of modding is. People have been modding these games before a CK is released using xedit, which is also outside the specification. Every script extender mod is outside the specification, as is every ENB. Merging plugins is outside the specification. A lot of games never had any official modding support and still turned out to be perfect platforms for modding, check out gta5.

The most interesting mods are well beyond what the development company provided us tools for.

 

My point above was that you, as a mod author, don't owe people anything. If you decide to not support VR that's your choice and you don't have to justify that. Of course people may be disappointed (I am) but no one has a right to attack you over it. But the same is true for Vortex, we provide a tool for free in a way that we think is the best for the biggest part of our community. People may be disappointed if Vortex isn't exactly what they wanted and I'm sorry about that but we don't owe each individual exactly what they wanted.

 

The authors of each and every one of those tools has said this since the beginning, so it's not THEIR responsibility to change their ways because Vortex has decided to ban cars.

 

 

No one has asked any of those tool authors to change their tools for us, We're using what LOOT provides us with and build UI on top of that. Not a single change to LOOT has been proposed by us to accommodate Vortex.

We're also not banning anything, we just decided on what we provide and what we don't. We don't owe you manual drag&drop load ordering, this is our choice to make. We listen to arguments because we're reasonable people but we're not going to be coerced into making a change we don't believe in.

[Grestorn]

 

Sometime you don't listen to your users, either, Arthmoor, and you think you're right. Sometimes I disagree with you, like with your decision to not support VR, even though there are PLENTY of users (like me) willing to help you with that, so you don't need to buy a setup yourself. I thought that was extremely short-sighted and stubborn. But, well, your mods, your decision. Now I'm no longer using your mods (at least those you can live without). I still think it's a shame, but I cannot change your opinion on that. You're not alone with this, the guys from SkyUI have the same attitude and it really pisses me off.

 

Talking about "horse" and "car". ... THERE you have an example of rejecting a new modern technology out of pure stubbornness!

If you're going to go down this road, why not mention that you know, and everyone else knows, VR is on an incompatible branch of code that doesn't support mods to begin with. So everyone "modding" VR is doing so outside of any actual provision for the activity. Which is basically you're taking a car, modifying it, and then expecting people like me who make stock parts to also support them when modified outside their specifications. Not gonna happen in any sane world.

 

This argument is completely off, and I'm pretty sure you know that if you really listen into your heart.

 

As Tannin has said, modding was never about official support. You yourself have started to mod Skyrim long before Bethesda started to sanction it officially. Actually, when Bethesda started to implement modding officially by means of the Creation Club, most people shunned that idea.

 

The matter of the fact is, that the only thing Skyrim VR doesn't support, is the official way of modding, i.e. the Creation Club. The Creation Kit itself works just fine, as do all the other tools. And the code base is only slightly older than the latest Skyrim SE, but that's hardly relevant for any mod. The problems that affect both Alternate Life and SkyUI are caused by the differences in VR itself and its UI, not by the fact that it's a slightly older code base.

 

 

But that's all beside the point.

 

First, what I want to stress, because I really really mean it, and not because I want to suck up to you:

 

I appreciate the enormous effort you put into that game and into the community. I have a slight understanding about the amount of work you must have put in your mods, AL, USSEP, all the city mods and other stuff. It takes so much dedication and love to spend all this time, effort and, of course, talent and know how. And you give all of that for free to everyone.

It's my earnest believe that people don't give you enough credit and I'd gladly immediately pay you for all those many hours I've enjoyed your work.

 

All this makes it even harder for me to understand why you shun this new way of playing this game and the people who enjoy it. I've spent a bit over 1000 hours in the base game (and some time to create my own quest mod, which I've never published) and now, on top of that, another 200 hours of playing the VR version (only counting kyrim, Fallout 4 got another chunk of my time).

And I can only say, that VR is really really worth it. More than that, it's a whole new level of gaming. I understand that it's not for everyone and I accept that you don't like it. That's your choice and your prerogative.

 

What I just don't get, is that you shun all of us players who just want to get an enjoyable experience. Even though it wouldn't be that much of an effort to support us. Actually, I'd even consider to try to fix the problems myself, given a few tips and pointers from your side.

 

AL is missed dearly, but I can play the game without it, of course. What really becomes a problem is the missing SkyUI. Not so much because of the nice UI, but because of the MMC, which is becoming a requirement for more and more mods.

You've set an example and now the SkyUI guys can always point at you to justify their position. Now, what we've ended up with, is a split up gaming community.

 

The majority just plays the SSE and is happy with everything. But there's a comparatively small (but still absolutely considerable big number) of VR players, who feel like they're second class Skyrim citizens, now. We can use practically all mods, unless they interfere with the UI, the initial Helgen quests (which is almost exclusively AL) or need a working MMC.

 

And there's really no good reason for that, other than the guys who made those essential mods are tired and maybe even frustrated.

 

Actually, I've never really expected that SKSE would ever be ported to SSE, because that was a huge amount of work. I was proven wrong, and I cannot tell you how much I appreciate that team for their incredible work. But they did it, and they also chose to support Skyrim VR. I'd like to hug them just for that kind of dedication.

[Jebbalon]

 

Btw.: There are two other ways to set rules that many have apparently not found: You can go to the "Manage Rules" dialog where you can pick the plugins from dropdowns, since you can search those dropdowns and they don't reset after you add a rule, this may be quicker than drag and drop.

Also you can click the dependencies icon, click edit and then the dependencies column turns into checkboxes. Once you confirm the plugin you clicked "Edit" on will load after all the ones you checked. This is a good way to batch-create rules when you need to set a lot of rules for a single mod, for example one you're working on.

 

Another way to set rules is using groups. Mods I want to merge I made a late loading group for - then opened merge tool. Selected that group and disabled afterwards.

 

 

 

We don't owe you manual drag&drop load ordering, this is our choice to make. We listen to arguments because we're reasonable people but we're not going to be coerced into making a change we don't believe in.

Maybe at this point - stop saying it in that manner......

' Vortex does not offer the traditional manual drag & drop on the plugins tab. However, you can use drag & drop (and other methods) to create rules. After sorting, the changes will be made assuming all rules are satisfied. '

[HadToRegister]

 

 

 

As Tannin has said, modding was never about official support. You yourself have started to mod Skyrim long before Bethesda started to sanction it officially. Actually, when Bethesda started to implement modding officially by means of the Creation Club, most people shunned that idea.

 

 

You make it sound like Bethesda has only recently started supporting modding their game, by using Skyrim as an example, when IN FACT, Bethesda announced for those particular games (Morrowind, Oblivion, Slyrim, Fallout3, Fallout: New Vegas, and Skyrim SE) games that they would be releasing Modding tools for that game, but when it comes to Slyrim VR and Fallout 4 VR they have clearly stated that they DO NOT support modding at this time.

Hell, Bethesda even had a NAMING CONTEST for the Modding Tools for Fallout 3, the winner was G.E.C.K. (Garden of Edit5ion Creation Kit) and they THEN announced for Skyrim, since it was a differnet genre, that they would r3educe to thew name to CK (Creation Kit).

Bethesda has supported modding since at least 2003 with Morrowind, and they were very active on their old forums, so much so, that I even used to talk to one of the Devs on ICQ.

 

 

 

The matter of the fact is, that the only thing Skyrim VR doesn't support, is the official way of modding, i.e. the Creation Club. The Creation Kit itself works just fine, as do all the other tools. And the code base is only slightly older than the latest Skyrim SE, but that's hardly relevant for any mod. The problems that affect both Alternate Life and SkyUI are caused by the differences in VR itself.

EXACTLY, which is WHY he's not supporting it.

Fallout 4 VR is also versions older than Fallout 4, and you're expecting an older version of the exe to work with a version of a mod written and updated for the newest version.

You're also doing EXACTLY what Tannin42 said, you're attacking Arthmoor for not making a Mod YOU want, to the point where you said it 'pisses you off'

Arthmoor is under no obligation, just Like Tannin42 is under no obligation to build anything based on your or my requests.

 

 

 

 

 

All this makes it even harder for me to understand why you shun this new way of playing this game and the people who enjoy it.

 

 

VR kits are expensive? And VR hasn't really come into it's own yet, it's STILL not worth the time and trouble, and needs about 10 more years to become practical, because right now, with companies making their games VR Exclusive to only one particular VR headset, it's a bad time to get involved.

It's like the Betamax vs VHS fight (probably before your time), with Betamax being the Superior format, but VHS winning anyway.

I noticed that Steam says Fallout 4 VR REQUIRES the HTC headset, well, what happens if you bought a different competitotr's headset?

THIS is why I won't invest in VR, until the fight for market superiority is done, because I've been burned too many times buying a certain brand of appliance/electronics only to have it go obsolete once the Market superiority fights are won.

So, I'm gladly sitting this whole VR thing out until there's standardization and it doesn't matter WHICH Headset you buy.

 

 

 

 

What I just don't get, is that you shun all of us players who just want to get an enjoyable experience. Even though it wouldn't be that much of an effort to support us.

 

 

Arthmoor's UFO4P Page already has demands for hundreds of version of the mod to cater to people who have all different combinations of the DLC or don't have ANY of the DLC because "REASONS"

If my math is correct (and it's usually almost not), this means that he'd have to maintain 2^7 variations (128) for UFO4P in order to cater to every combination of of the DLC, and seeing that Fallout 4 VR doesn't even HAVE any DLC, that means going back and figuring out what to cut out of UFO4P, making 129 versions, that is, until DLC comes out for VR, then it's back to 128 versions for VR too.

[HadToRegister]

 

 

Btw.: There are two other ways to set rules that many have apparently not found: You can go to the "Manage Rules" dialog where you can pick the plugins from dropdowns, since you can search those dropdowns and they don't reset after you add a rule, this may be quicker than drag and drop.

Also you can click the dependencies icon, click edit and then the dependencies column turns into checkboxes. Once you confirm the plugin you clicked "Edit" on will load after all the ones you checked. This is a good way to batch-create rules when you need to set a lot of rules for a single mod, for example one you're working on.

 

Another way to set rules is using groups. Mods I want to merge I made a late loading group for - then opened merge tool. Selected that group and disabled afterwards.

 

A lot of this confusion could be eliminated if there was a Manual or a Guide.

It'd be really handy, especially for finding and learning about some of the hidden features.

I realize it's Alpha software, but I've been using Vortex since June 11th, and never noticed the "Manage Rules" option, or how the grouping option actually works.

Also there seems to be a ton of hidden stuff that you can see by double clicking on things in the interface, such as the Mod Info etc.

[Grestorn]

@HadToRegister: Would you mind letting Arthmoor talk for himself? I'm discussing with him (if he so chooses), not with you. Many of your points are really really off, by the way.

[HadToRegister]

Many of your points are really really off, by the way.

 

-deleted-

Arthmoor said it far better