Simple manual load ordering plz

[Grestorn]

Some people repeating the same argument doesn't change anything if the actual reasoning doesn't change.

 

Sometimes people fight something just because. There are many examples for that (safety belts come to mind). It's an effort to get accustomed with a new method to do something, so many people prefer to stick to the old way. Even if there are some people that explain them, that the old way doesn't work for some reason or come with serious disadvantages.

 

In this case, offering an option for manual sorting has only disadvantages for all parties involved, including the people who have to support Vortex and explain the people why their manual sorting is causing problems or why a click on "sort" destroyed all the manual sorting they did before.

 

 

Again: Why don't you just think of rules and groups as a "new way" to do the manual sorting, but in a way that just sticks, even when asking LOOT to re-sort?

[HeyYou]

 

Doesn't the mere fact this argument is STILL going on tell you something? This has been a thing since Vortex first released. People are still asking for it. That, to me, implies that people actually want it. So, how much time would you save, by NOT wasting it arguing in this thread, and simply implementing what people want?

 

So, how would you think about it if I spent the next 3 month not working on any gamebryo related things because the modding community for "Game Dev Tycoon" wanted a complex feature and managed to gather 10 people to repeatedly ask for it very stubbornly? Is it really so hard to understand that you can't organize a project like that?

 

 

Seems to me, given the number of responses in this thread, you have already spent more time arguing against it, than you would have spent coding it.

 

If you had read the responses in this thread instead of just looking at the count you would know that I already explained (repeatedly) that coding this feature is only the smallest part of the cost the feature incurs.

You know, I wouldn't have to waste so much time in these discussions if it weren't for people who jump in and start from the beginning again, I've already answered all of this.

 

However, as mentioned allowing manual ordering should be an option

 

 

Same here, I already gave you a lengthy explanation why that doesn't work, you can't just ignore that and act like you still had a point. If you're not going to even take note of the replies I give you, I hope you don't expect me to make the effort again in the future.

 

Right, so, you will continue to argue with 'people like me', wasting yet more time. How long do you propose to do that? How much more time are you going to waste? I notice that 'conducting a poll' has been mentioned several times in this thread, I also note that none of the devs have bothered to do so. (to be fair, neither have any of the users either.) is it only ten people? if it is such a TINY minority of your potential user-base, and it is something you have no intention of implementing, (which was your position from the beginning.....) why do you even come to this thread? Why do you feel such a need to explain yourself? What justification is there for the hours spent in useless finger exercise? If you continue to argue the point, do you think you are going to convince anyone that "I am right, and you folks are wrong."? Here we are, four months into the thread, and you haven't convinced anyone that actually wants this feature, to stop wanting it.

 

Please excuse me for not reading thru 14 pages of history here, to get your 'answers'.

[Jebbalon]

... Here we are, four months into the thread, and you haven't convinced anyone that actually wants this feature, to stop wanting it.

 

 

 

He kinda convinced me that's why I'm writing this.... again...

 

We need Tannin and team to release a description of the Auto Sort vs Manual drag & drop features in Vortex. Explain what the old way is, and why the new way is just as good or better.

 

Vortex has a drag and drop feature that creates rules very quickly that then order plugins as if you manually dragged and dropped them. People here are arguing over something they simply haven't figured out yet. And Tannin is arguing as if we do understand and aren't accepting it. Educate us and the arguments go away.

 

Is is perfect - not in my opinion - we still need a way of either locking down the load order or being made aware of changes in order when they happen. (highlight color changes for example)

 

Is it very useful - Yes - it takes getting used to and needs work on User Experience but it is getting better.

[Tannin42]

Right, so, you will continue to argue with 'people like me', wasting yet more time. How long do you propose to do that? How much more time are you going to waste?

However long I feel like.

 

I notice that 'conducting a poll' has been mentioned several times in this thread, I also note that none of the devs have bothered to do so.

So, if I do a poll "Which feature do you want, Mass Effect 3 support or direct drag&drop ordering for bethesda games" and put it up in a Mass Effect 3 forum you will accept the result?

 

(to be fair, neither have any of the users either.)

Would be pointless anyway.

 

What justification is there for the hours spent in useless finger exercise?

The only justification I need: I felt like it. What justification do you have for judging how I spend my time?

 

If you continue to argue the point, do you think you are going to convince anyone

I don't have to convince anyone, you have to convince me. Unless you want to spend the time on the feature, but I wouldn't actually mind that...

 

Please excuse me for not reading thru 14 pages of history here, to get your 'answers'.

 

Nope, sorry. You don't get to ignore the existing discussion, start it from the beginning and then complain I'm wasting time answering you...

[Dark0ne]

Yes, there seems to be a very odd misconception here. Tannin doesn't work for you, he doesn't need to justify himself to you. The only person he needs to justify himself to is me, as I'm the one who pays him. He posts in this thread like any mod author might post on their mod's comments when misconceptions are being spread, I've not told him to stop posting, and he's perfectly within his rights to do so. I tell him if I want him to stop posting here, not you.

 

HeyYou, you haven't even downloaded Vortex or tried to use it yet. Neither have several of the other people talking in this thread. You're here because you heard that Vortex has "no manual drag and drop ordering of the load order" and you want to argue about it.

 

Ultimately, we're well aware that Vortex is not going to convince a minority of users in this community who are well entrenched in their ways, and who think their way is the best and only way. There are people posting in this thread who would never change from their current method of modding the game. We know that. There's not much we can do about that other than release as much help and documentation as possible when the time comes, explain our reasons and let the users of Vortex who appreciate it, do the talking for us. There's not a single thing that Tannin could say right now to convince some people in this very conversation that his method is a good change. Tannin knows that, I know that. But he's still here talking because he wants to be. And I'm not going to stop him.

[Rattledagger]

 

As far as what problems can't be solved by LOOT, special cases of mods needing to go exactly between each other, or a mod that definitely needs to "load last" (like my Dawnguard Map Markers mod for example) are difficult at best to wrangle when all you can tell LOOT is "load it after this one". Ok, so it loaded after X, but then LOOT stuck Y and Z after it and I don't want that. Then A, B, C, D, and E came along later and disrupted it all again. Whereas a manual sort it's a one and done operation. Drag that s*** to the bottom. End of operation. Seconds vs hours figuring out how to trick LOOT.

 

Now I don't know about Wrye Bash, but at least with NMM and MO when yes, it's easy to drag Dawnguard Map Markers (let's call it DMM.esp) to the bottom of the load-order. But if you now adds mods A, B, C, D and E, these mods will always load after DMM.esp, meaning you'll need to drag DMM.esp to the bottom of the load-order every time you add a new mod in NMM and MO.

 

With LOOT and Vortex on the other hand, you put DMM.esp into the last Group (don't remember the exact name) and even if A, B, C, D and E is installed later on these will normally be placed in the Default-group. Meaning, with Vortex DMM.esp is a one-off operation, with NMM and MO it's drag-and-drop for every time you add a new esp.

 

BTW, yes, I can understand tricking LOOT can be problematic, since LOOT doesn't seem to display the group any given plugin is located in, unless you open-up and wants to change the group. In Vortex on the other hand the Group is displayed as another column and this makes it easy to put plugins into relevant groups.

 

As for "special cases of mods needing to go exactly between each other", an excellent example is "Requiem - Legendary Bugsmasher Edition.esp" that always must be loaded directly after "Requiem.esp". I've countless times had to drag-and-drop the Bugsmasher back to the correct location in NMM (on new profiles). In Vortex on the other hand, Requiem.esp is automatically put into the Requiem-group, add the Bugsmasher to the next group and put all the Requiem-patches in the following group... and this is a once-off operation.

[UrizenDe]

The problem is the sole dependency on LOOT. It works like a charm when it has a well curated Masterlist to back it up. Not so much when it can only sort by numbers of edits made. ( There´s a reason why people say to use BOSS instead of LOOT for old mods in Oblivion, FO3 and FO:NV. )

 

Picture this: The CK for TES6 has just been released. In the first month 100s of new mods flood the nexus. Mods that will inevitably conflict in one way or another, because of dirty edits, because of wild edits, because of a lack of documentation, you name it. LOOT will fail here. Mod A and Mod B make a change to the same form, so LOOT sorts it simply like this Mod A -> Mod B. Yet Mod C that for LOOT is unrelated to these mods requires this Mod B -> Mod A to function properly. But figuring this out requires experimentation. Experimentation that only can be done through rules, groups, priorities. And that of course requires for LOOT to work with TES6 to begin with and if it doesn´t do all the aforementioned things even work? Whereas NMM for example only needs to support the game and I can mod and tinker with my LO to my hearts content.

[Tannin42]

Umm, LOOT does use a curated masterlist so that entire argument is invalid...

If LOOT orders incorrectly it can be fixed by any community member for the community or by everyone individually through the userlist which you can edit inside Vortex.

 

EDIT: To clarify this: LOOT uses an algorithm-based order as the first step but on top it uses rules from the curated masterlist as well as your custom userlist to order the plugins.

With a new game, if the algorithm actually gets a lot wrong and there isn't a lot of masterlist rules because the mods are too new, the worst that would happen is that you have to set more custom rules.

 

And regarding "LOOT has to support the game first": This is work that takes literally minutes, fat chance that TES6 and its CK get released and 100s of mods created before someone adds support in LOOT... The only way it could take longer is if the format in which the load order is stored changes but then NMM, MO, Wrye Bash and Vortex itself all need to be updated as well anyway.

[Zanderat]

So, I am convinced. I recognized myself as one of the stubborn ones Dark0ne was referring to... LOL! I agree that LOOT as constituted works quite well.

 

But isn't the easiest solution to simply turn off auto sorting in Vortex? Then, I would imagine you could use external LOOT to sort and then WB to manually order your exceptions?

[UrizenDe]

So, I am convinced. I recognized myself as one of the stubborn ones Dark0ne was referring to... LOL! I agree that LOOT as constituted works quite well.

 

But isn't the easiest solution to simply turn off auto sorting in Vortex? Then, I would imagine you could use external LOOT to sort and then WB to manually order your exceptions?

 

In which case the question is: Why use Vortex? Afterall, I can use BAIN to install my mods, no?