Simple manual load ordering plz

[Dark0ne]

The community team are working on documentation right now. It'll likely be thin to begin with during the beta launch, but be padded out as time goes on. We're integrating help, support and tutorials into Vortex itself at the moment, which will become a part of the content process.

[HeyYou]

 

 

 

Right, so, you will continue to argue with 'people like me', wasting yet more time. How long do you propose to do that? How much more time are you going to waste?

However long I feel like.

 

I notice that 'conducting a poll' has been mentioned several times in this thread, I also note that none of the devs have bothered to do so.

So, if I do a poll "Which feature do you want, Mass Effect 3 support or direct drag&drop ordering for bethesda games" and put it up in a Mass Effect 3 forum you will accept the result?

 

(to be fair, neither have any of the users either.)

Would be pointless anyway.

 

What justification is there for the hours spent in useless finger exercise?

The only justification I need: I felt like it. What justification do you have for judging how I spend my time?

 

If you continue to argue the point, do you think you are going to convince anyone

I don't have to convince anyone, you have to convince me. Unless you want to spend the time on the feature, but I wouldn't actually mind that...

 

Please excuse me for not reading thru 14 pages of history here, to get your 'answers'.

 

Nope, sorry. You don't get to ignore the existing discussion, start it from the beginning and then complain I'm wasting time answering you...

 

Ah, ok, so your position remains: I am right, you are wrong. Noted.

 

Yes, there seems to be a very odd misconception here. Tannin doesn't work for you, he doesn't need to justify himself to you. The only person he needs to justify himself to is me, as I'm the one who pays him. He posts in this thread like any mod author might post on their mod's comments when misconceptions are being spread, I've not told him to stop posting, and he's perfectly within his rights to do so. I tell him if I want him to stop posting here, not you.

 

HeyYou, you haven't even downloaded Vortex or tried to use it yet. Neither have several of the other people talking in this thread. You're here because you heard that Vortex has "no manual drag and drop ordering of the load order" and you want to argue about it.

 

Ultimately, we're well aware that Vortex is not going to convince a minority of users in this community who are well entrenched in their ways, and who think their way is the best and only way. There are people posting in this thread who would never change from their current method of modding the game. We know that. There's not much we can do about that other than release as much help and documentation as possible when the time comes, explain our reasons and let the users of Vortex who appreciate it, do the talking for us. There's not a single thing that Tannin could say right now to convince some people in this very conversation that his method is a good change. Tannin knows that, I know that. But he's still here talking because he wants to be. And I'm not going to stop him.

No, I haven't downloaded it, nor will I, as it doesn't support features that I want. And yes, he works for you. If you want to pay him to essentially continue to kick at the greasy spot, that used to be the dead horse, that is your prerogative.

 

 

Christ, this is a new level of petty for you. It reflects poorly.

 

If you're going to question why Vortex has or has not got something when the question has already been asked and responded to (because you're too lazy to read through the thread), then question whether the creator should be "wasting his time" answering your repeated questions when you (and others) are the ones repeating them then, honestly, I don't even know what the hell you're doing here. Just leave. If it gets any more petty, I'll simply remove your posts.

 

Petty? Is that what it is? Really? Well, if you say so..... Such was not my intent though.

 

I would also point out, that this whole thread is full of folks asking, and getting answers, for the exact same questions. Why single out me for being 'petty'.

 

On second thought, don't bother answering that. It really doesn't matter.

 

Just one last thought before I go on my way though. Implementing drag and drop would not be implemented at the expense of some other feature, though it would likely delay some other feature. Not like you folks are going to stop development any time soon.....

[Jebbalon]

 

Just one last thought before I go on my way though. Implementing drag and drop would not be implemented at the expense of some other feature, though it would likely delay some other feature. Not like you folks are going to stop development any time soon.....

 

 

Seriously? You clearly have not read this thread and or used Vortex.

Vortex has drag and drop ordering used to set rules that then sorts plugins into the order you want. How hard is it to figure that out? Rhetorical question = it is not hard.

[HeyYou]

 

 

Just one last thought before I go on my way though. Implementing drag and drop would not be implemented at the expense of some other feature, though it would likely delay some other feature. Not like you folks are going to stop development any time soon.....

 

 

Seriously? You clearly have not read this thread and or used Vortex.

Vortex has drag and drop ordering used to set rules that then sorts plugins into the order you want. How hard is it to figure that out? Rhetorical question = it is not hard.

 

Ok, so, if it already has it, why is there a 16 page thread debating not having it?

[Zanderat]

^^^Becuase it follows the new LOOT rules (groups) and doesn't allow manual overrides.

 

edit: but you can create new groups and there is drag and drop, but you need to follow the rules established.

[Jebbalon]

Reason for this entire thread is because no one understands both sides of the situation 100% and that includes Tannin.

 

Working with load order using NMM and LOOT ...

- Install mods with NMM

- Run LOOT to sort

- Run xEdit, Merge program, Bash Patch, xEdit again

- Manual drag and drop in NMM anything that needs to be adjusted

- Maybe run LOOT again during this process after merging or adding more mods

- Then, that's it - you start your play through and never run LOOT or drag & drop again. Changing load order during a playthrough can cause issues.

 

With Vortex there is Auto Sorting and Sorting - this is different than just using LOOT.

- Auto Sorting is always running - if you deploy mods from Mods tab it will sort - if you make a rule it will sort - if you do anything it will sort.

- You can disable Auto Sorting and use the Sorting button which is like using standalone LOOT - when you click it will sort the mods. If you set rules you have to click sort for the rules to take effect.

 

The issue in my opinion is not about having Manual Drag & Drop - there are several ways to order plugins in Vortex including the simple drag and create rule then sort to take effect.

The issue is coming up with a final load order and knowing that it will not change or, if it does change, being made aware of it.

 

Does this make any sense?

@Arthmoor - I'd like your input as well if you are still reading this thread.

[Tannin42]

Ok, so, if it already has it, why is there a 16 page thread debating not having it?

 

Are you joking? You yourself are posting on this thread although you have not checked out what Vortex can or can't do:

 

No, I haven't downloaded it, nor will I, as it doesn't support features that I want.

 

and now you're complaining about this thread being kept alive despite a misconception about the functionality of Vortex?

 

Reason for this entire thread is because no one understands both sides of the situation 100% and that includes Tannin.

 

I'm open to hearing arguments from "the other side", that's why I'm still replying on this thread but tbh. there hasn't been a lot added to the discussion that I hadn't considered from the start. The only person who actually raised a point that I hadn't thought of before is OldMansBeard in this thread: https://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/6357846-giving-up-on-vortex-for-now and it took all of 2 well-thought-out posts from him to get his point across and convince me and one update for me to address it.

But now, after 16 pages on this thread alone and 7 months after release, I'd be a bit surprised to hear something new. Still: I'm listening.

 

- Manual drag and drop in NMM anything that needs to be adjusted

- Maybe run LOOT again during this process after merging or adding more mods

 

So then please make me understand this. When you run LOOT after "manual drag&drop" that replaces your manual load order so that entire manual step was futile. So why do it in the first place?

 

Changing load order during a playthrough can cause issues.

 

This too has been discussed ages ago and what I took out of that was that it's extremely rare that a plugin would cause trouble if moved after starting the game. And Vortex does provide a way to lock a mod to a specific index which solves those rare cases, even when you allow autosorting for the remaining list.

Whereas with NMM, adding a master, maybe even just updating a mod that then installs two masters instead of the one from the previous version, will still change the load order of most of your plugins - everything after the added file.

And with NMM, if for some reason your plugins.txt gets changed or deleted, you can try to figure out what your load order was, hopefully you have a backup. With Vortex, the same rules applied to the same list of mods will produce the same load order any time (admittedly: Unless the master list changes on one of your installed mods, but still: you'll be very close)

I'd argue Vortex solves this better because it has a tool for this exact case instead of one low-level tool (direct load order editing) that's being used for a thousand different things.

 

The issue is coming up with a final load order and knowing that it will not change or, if it does change, being made aware of it.

 

The reply to this is in the above part: LOOT is deterministic, it will produce the same load order if the input is the same.

Also, Vortex has the ability to recover the load order from a save file, so that should fix this worry neatly as well.

 

Tbh. I think the real issue here is not that Vortex doesn't have all the necessary features, it's just that they are different from other tools and if you're fixated on using Vortex exactly like you used NMM before instead of trying to use it the way it's intended you're going to be in trouble.

[UrizenDe]

 

- Manual drag and drop in NMM anything that needs to be adjusted

- Maybe run LOOT again during this process after merging or adding more mods

So then please make me understand this. When you run LOOT after "manual drag&drop" that replaces your manual load order so that entire manual step was futile. So why do it in the first place?

 

Yeah, only reason to do that is if you fecked up badly, otherwise its nonsensical.

 

 

Changing load order during a playthrough can cause issues.

This too has been discussed ages ago and what I took out of that was that it's extremely rare that a plugin would cause trouble if moved after starting the game. And Vortex does provide a way to lock a mod to a specific index which solves those rare cases, even when you allow autosorting for the remaining list.

Whereas with NMM, adding a master, maybe even just updating a mod that then installs two masters instead of the one from the previous version, will still change the load order of most of your plugins - everything after the added file.

And with NMM, if for some reason your plugins.txt gets changed or deleted, you can try to figure out what your load order was, hopefully you have a backup. With Vortex, the same rules applied to the same list of mods will produce the same load order any time (admittedly: Unless the master list changes on one of your installed mods, but still: you'll be very close)

I'd argue Vortex solves this better because it has a tool for this exact case instead of one low-level tool (direct load order editing) that's being used for a thousand different things.

 

Scriptmods are always a risk Tannin. Something as simple as moving them can cause scripts to be orphaned. But you tend to be fine with nonscript mods.

 

Also, Vortex has the ability to recover the load order from a save file, so that should fix this worry neatly as well.

Neat. Always missed that with NMM/WB.

[Grestorn]

Scriptmods are always a risk Tannin. Something as simple as moving them can cause scripts to be orphaned. But you tend to be fine with nonscript mods.

 

 

No, that's just not true. The only reason why a mod would cause problems if moved, if it used it's own mod-index internally. Which is a *VERY* bad idea. And actually would break sooner or later anyway, no matter if you use manual or automatic sorting.

 

Orphaned scripts are only caused by removing a plugin or if a plugin is updated and the update doesn't use a script any longer. The position (mod-index) of a mod doesn't matter for the scripts to be assigned to the correct mod.

[Jebbalon]

 

 

 

Tbh. I think the real issue here is not that Vortex doesn't have all the necessary features, it's just that they are different from other tools and if you're fixated on using Vortex exactly like you used NMM before instead of trying to use it the way it's intended you're going to be in trouble.

Correct that is where I am at also. I just want there to be clear understanding from everyone and I don't think we are there yet.

 

 

The only person who actually raised a point that I hadn't thought of before is OldMansBeard in ...the thread of his...

Ahh that is where that came from.

Precise positioning of plugins is ONLY useful in situations like what he describes - it has absolutely no bearing on this thread and the issue of manual drag & drop. I don't know how to articulate that any more than this.

 

 

 

- Manual drag and drop in NMM anything that needs to be adjusted

- Maybe run LOOT again during this process after merging or adding more mods

....

So then please make me understand this. When you run LOOT after "manual drag&drop" that replaces your manual load order so that entire manual step was futile. So why do it in the first place?

Okay, I unintentionally made those bullet points the way I did. I did not make them numbered though. That is a back and forth process. As you are setting up a load order you use LOOT for rough sort in an automatic way. You then use fine tuning manual drag & drop in NMM to move things you know need to move. You add other stuff you merge and remove other things. Then you go back to LOOT set rules and sort again. And back to NMM to start all over - rinse and repeat. It's not 1, 2, 3. It's back and forth till you get it the way you want, the way it works.

That's why I've been saying - Vortex is fine with that stuff. You have LOOT integrated and you don't have to go between two programs that's great. and setting rules is easy, it works.

 

 

This too has been discussed ages ago and what I took out of that was that it's extremely rare that a plugin would cause trouble if moved after starting the game. And Vortex does provide a way to lock a mod to a specific index which solves those rare cases, even when you allow autosorting for the remaining list.

Whereas with NMM, adding a master, maybe even just updating a mod that then installs two masters instead of the one from the previous version, will still change the load order of most of your plugins - everything after the added file.

And with NMM, if for some reason your plugins.txt gets changed or deleted, you can try to figure out what your load order was, hopefully you have a backup.

Changing load order after starting a playthrough does cause issues. We know this from experience. If you want hard evidence - then I personally can't help. This is where someone like Arthmoor may know more or someone using tools like Fallrim Tools and specific setups with specific scripts and testing specific scenarios would have to be done to prove it.

From experience though when Form ID lists get moved around you end up with very strange results including corrupted saves and crashes.

Locking a mod to a specific mod index as I explained above is useless in this case - if you lock one mod that can pull other mods into its lists then you'd have to lock all the mods and good luck with that. It's just not feasible to do that and keep track of what goes where. I gave an example of the companion mod Vilja which uses form ID lists to store outfits. If you have several armor mods installed and you configure Vilja's outfits with a mixture of vanilla and those other mods then get everything the way you want. Great. Now if you throw in a weapon mod, sort , and Vilja's plugin moves or any of the armor mods move - You end up with outfits possibly pointing to things that are not armor. At best you can redo the outfit configuration. At worst you are trying to equip her with something that is not meant to be equipped like a chair or campfire from an unrelated mod.

 

 

With Vortex, the same rules applied to the same list of mods will produce the same load order any time (admittedly: Unless the master list changes on one of your installed mods, but still: you'll be very close)

I'd argue Vortex solves this better because it has a tool for this exact case instead of one low-level tool (direct load order editing) that's being used for a thousand different things.

To be blunt - Prove it.

There is no easy way for me to install 75 or 100 mods and see that every time I allow Vortex to sort that the order is the same. That's why I've been trying to change this discussion to one that asks for this type of feature.

Admittedly there are mods that simply would not care if their order changed and other mods wouldn't care either as long as it didn't change their order or the order of mods related to it. Again this is not about locking their index - it's about knowing if they have moved or not.

Once I start a playthrough I need to know if anything changes. That can happen if I update mods or add in new mods. The way I add in new mods is first knowing that the mod is minor like texture mod that happens to have a plugin (some do) - I don't want Vortex to sort this mod up in the middle - I want to add it to the very bottom so no other mod is going to move. I set its group to my custom Load Last group and hit Sort. In NMM that's it - I know not run LOOT again, there is no need. When I do start a new playthrough later, I'll remove my custom rule or group on that mod and let everything sort like normal.

Having a visual indication after sorting in Vortex that shows whether plugins moved after sorting would be useful in this case. Just to confirm nothing moved that should not have.

 

 

Okay I think I wrote what I wanted to write.

BTW Tannin - Thank you for being willing to listen - Vortex is really coming along nicely.