Vortex 1.0 Release

[Dark0ne]

In response to post #72260498. #72302373, #72304623, #72304688, #72304753, #72304798 are all replies on the same post.

HadToRegister wrote:

I don't understand why there needs to be an argument over manual load order sorting, it's a simple feature why not just add it for those that want it, make it an option we can activate in the settings if you dont want it on by default

and dont give me that "new way of thinking" or "accept change", neither of those are an acceptable excuse to ignore a not insignificant portion of your user base

 

Another Argumentum ad Populum.

I too don't understand why there needs to be an argument about manual load order sorting, if you'd take the time to learn how to set rules in Vortex, or just drag and drop one plugin before or after another, you'd see how easy and quick it is.
People are just arguing FOR Manual Load Order Sorting just "Because"

Personally I don't understand why people want to keep an outdated and archaic way of doing your load order, when manual sorting allows you to mess it up fabulously.

Sonja wrote: I don't understand why there needs to be an argument over it either.
For me, it's quite simple; I don't use Vortex, and I never will. I'm still sticking with the tried and true... I install with Wrye Bash, do an initial pass with LOOT, and then tweak manually in Wrye Bash... wonderful, simple and intuitive. In all the years I've used it, Wrye Mash/Bash/Smash/Flash has never failed me.
Even the LOOT devs recommend AGAINST using the system the way Vortex does. LOOT should be regarded like a spelling, or grammar, checker.. It's great for a first pass to fix the most egregious problems, but it STILL needs a human hand..... One that has actually learnt how to build a load order, rather than relying on automation.
I've actually tried Vortex a couple of times now (and having modded Beth games since Morrowind, I KNOW what I'm doing by this point).... Just, no thanks.
No doubt Vortex is great for some people, but I'm not one of them. I want full control over the install process, and that includes being able to easily drag and drop mods.

Do note, I am neither "crying" nor "arguing" here. I don't care if people want to use Vortex, their game, their problem. I simply have no plans to use it personally, and I'm glad we have the choice.

Dark0ne wrote:

Even the LOOT devs recommend AGAINST using the system the way Vortex does

I'd be interested in knowing the source of this, and where it is. Please can you provide it?

Sonja wrote: I'd actually prefer not to. Suffice to say, it was highly credible source, and I'm inclined to believe it.
I realise that doesn't exactly back up my "case," but that's OK, because I'm not really trying to make one.

Dark0ne wrote: Ah, so you didn't read it from a LOOT dev, but instead you heard it from someone else saying that a LOOT dev had said it?

Sigh.

Sonja wrote: As I said, I'm well aware I'm not backing myself up here. And trust me, in a wholly different context I've been known to practically skin people alive for not using adequate referencing. In this situation, however, I have my reasons. *shrug*

What are the reasons? I'm trying to work out what they could be - it just seems a bit odd to me.

We only know of one person who spreads this information as though it was first-hand information and, when we spoke to the LOOT devs about this, they said none of them had said such a thing and/or had been misquoted. So, *shrug* as well, I guess!

[DoctorKaizeld]

In response to post #72260498. #72302373, #72304623, #72304688, #72304753, #72304798 are all replies on the same post.

 

HadToRegister wrote:

I don't understand why there needs to be an argument over manual load order sorting, it's a simple feature why not just add it for those that want it, make it an option we can activate in the settings if you dont want it on by defaultand dont give me that "new way of thinking" or "accept change", neither of those are an acceptable excuse to ignore a not insignificant portion of your user base

Another Argumentum ad Populum.I too don't understand why there needs to be an argument about manual load order sorting, if you'd take the time to learn how to set rules in Vortex, or just drag and drop one plugin before or after another, you'd see how easy and quick it is.People are just arguing FOR Manual Load Order Sorting just "Because"Personally I don't understand why people want to keep an outdated and archaic way of doing your load order, when manual sorting allows you to mess it up fabulously.

Sonja wrote: I don't understand why there needs to be an argument over it either.For me, it's quite simple; I don't use Vortex, and I never will. I'm still sticking with the tried and true... I install with Wrye Bash, do an initial pass with LOOT, and then tweak manually in Wrye Bash... wonderful, simple and intuitive. In all the years I've used it, Wrye Mash/Bash/Smash/Flash has never failed me. Even the LOOT devs recommend AGAINST using the system the way Vortex does. LOOT should be regarded like a spelling, or grammar, checker.. It's great for a first pass to fix the most egregious problems, but it STILL needs a human hand..... One that has actually learnt how to build a load order, rather than relying on automation. I've actually tried Vortex a couple of times now (and having modded Beth games since Morrowind, I KNOW what I'm doing by this point).... Just, no thanks.No doubt Vortex is great for some people, but I'm not one of them. I want full control over the install process, and that includes being able to easily drag and drop mods.Do note, I am neither "crying" nor "arguing" here. I don't care if people want to use Vortex, their game, their problem. I simply have no plans to use it personally, and I'm glad we have the choice.

Dark0ne wrote:

Even the LOOT devs recommend AGAINST using the system the way Vortex does

I'd be interested in knowing the source of this, and where it is. Please can you provide it?

Sonja wrote: I'd actually prefer not to. Suffice to say, it was highly credible source, and I'm inclined to believe it.I realise that doesn't exactly back up my "case," but that's OK, because I'm not really trying to make one.

Dark0ne wrote: Ah, so you didn't read it from a LOOT dev, but instead you heard it from someone else saying that a LOOT dev had said it?Sigh.

Sonja wrote: As I said, I'm well aware I'm not backing myself up here. And trust me, in a wholly different context I've been known to practically skin people alive for not using adequate referencing. In this situation, however, I have my reasons. *shrug*

What are the reasons? I'm trying to work out what they could be - it just seems a bit odd to me.We only know of one person who spreads this information as though it was first-hand information and, when we spoke to the LOOT devs about this, they said none of them had said such a thing and/or had been misquoted. So, *shrug* as well, I guess!

I've seen it said a couple times but have never seen snyone provide a source. Only dismissive comments about how they don't want to provide it.

[Guest deleted34304850]

 

In response to post #72260498. #72302373 is also a reply to the same post.

 

 

 

HadToRegister wrote:

I don't understand why there needs to be an argument over manual load order sorting, it's a simple feature why not just add it for those that want it, make it an option we can activate in the settings if you dont want it on by default

 

and dont give me that "new way of thinking" or "accept change", neither of those are an acceptable excuse to ignore a not insignificant portion of your user base

Another Argumentum ad Populum.

 

I too don't understand why there needs to be an argument about manual load order sorting, if you'd take the time to learn how to set rules in Vortex, or just drag and drop one plugin before or after another, you'd see how easy and quick it is.

People are just arguing FOR Manual Load Order Sorting just "Because"

 

Personally I don't understand why people want to keep an outdated and archaic way of doing your load order, when manual sorting allows you to mess it up fabulously.

Sonja wrote: I don't understand why there needs to be an argument over it either.

For me, it's quite simple; I don't use Vortex, and I never will. I'm still sticking with the tried and true... I install with Wrye Bash, do an initial pass with LOOT, and then tweak manually in Wrye Bash... wonderful, simple and intuitive. In all the years I've used it, Wrye Mash/Bash/Smash/Flash has never failed me.

Even the LOOT devs recommend AGAINST using the system the way Vortex does. LOOT should be regarded like a spelling, or grammar, checker.. It's great for a first pass to fix the most egregious problems, but it STILL needs a human hand..... One that has actually learnt how to build a load order, rather than relying on automation.

I've actually tried Vortex a couple of times now (and having modded Beth games since Morrowind, I KNOW what I'm doing by this point).... Just, no thanks.

No doubt Vortex is great for some people, but I'm not one of them. I want full control over the install process, and that includes being able to easily drag and drop mods.

Even the LOOT devs recommend AGAINST using the system the way Vortex does

I'd be interested in knowing the source of this, and where it is. Please can you provide it?

 

its a cut/paste job from a post on the UFO4P forums.

Amazing to see that Sonja had so many issues with vortex but never opened a single ticket. however, is fully prepared to shitpost about it. very odd behaviour.

[Dark0ne]

In response to post #72305858.

1ae0bfb8 wrote:

 

In response to post #72260498. #72302373 is also a reply to the same post.

HadToRegister wrote:

I don't understand why there needs to be an argument over manual load order sorting, it's a simple feature why not just add it for those that want it, make it an option we can activate in the settings if you dont want it on by default

and dont give me that "new way of thinking" or "accept change", neither of those are an acceptable excuse to ignore a not insignificant portion of your user base

Another Argumentum ad Populum.

I too don't understand why there needs to be an argument about manual load order sorting, if you'd take the time to learn how to set rules in Vortex, or just drag and drop one plugin before or after another, you'd see how easy and quick it is.
People are just arguing FOR Manual Load Order Sorting just "Because"

Personally I don't understand why people want to keep an outdated and archaic way of doing your load order, when manual sorting allows you to mess it up fabulously.

Sonja wrote: I don't understand why there needs to be an argument over it either.
For me, it's quite simple; I don't use Vortex, and I never will. I'm still sticking with the tried and true... I install with Wrye Bash, do an initial pass with LOOT, and then tweak manually in Wrye Bash... wonderful, simple and intuitive. In all the years I've used it, Wrye Mash/Bash/Smash/Flash has never failed me.
Even the LOOT devs recommend AGAINST using the system the way Vortex does. LOOT should be regarded like a spelling, or grammar, checker.. It's great for a first pass to fix the most egregious problems, but it STILL needs a human hand..... One that has actually learnt how to build a load order, rather than relying on automation.
I've actually tried Vortex a couple of times now (and having modded Beth games since Morrowind, I KNOW what I'm doing by this point).... Just, no thanks.
No doubt Vortex is great for some people, but I'm not one of them. I want full control over the install process, and that includes being able to easily drag and drop mods.

Even the LOOT devs recommend AGAINST using the system the way Vortex does

I'd be interested in knowing the source of this, and where it is. Please can you provide it?

 

its a cut/paste job from a post on the UFO4P forums.

Amazing to see that Sonja had so many issues with vortex but never opened a single ticket. however, is fully prepared to shitpost about it. very odd behaviour.

its a cut/paste job from a post on the UFO4P forums.

Do you have the source of that? I'd like to know where it comes from so I can better understand why it's being mentioned.

I wouldn't call what she wrote a "shitpost". It's just clear she would rather use the completely manual method rather than the Vortex method at this time. There are specific use cases where using another mod manager might be more efficient, but the important thing to understand is that those use-cases are niche and are not what the vast majority of mod users on Nexus Mods need, or will ever need.

Most importantly, we don't have any problem with people saying "I prefer the old method to the new method". The point of contention comes about when the old method is presented as the best method merely on the basis of it being "the old method", without any logic to support that argument. Edited August 5, 2019 by Dark0ne

[Guest deleted34304850]

 

In response to post #72305858.

 

 

 

1ae0bfb8 wrote:

its a cut/paste job from a post on the UFO4P forums.

In response to post #72260498. #72302373 is also a reply to the same post.

 

 

 

Sonja wrote: I don't understand why there needs to be an argument over it either.

For me, it's quite simple; I don't use Vortex, and I never will. I'm still sticking with the tried and true... I install with Wrye Bash, do an initial pass with LOOT, and then tweak manually in Wrye Bash... wonderful, simple and intuitive. In all the years I've used it, Wrye Mash/Bash/Smash/Flash has never failed me.

Even the LOOT devs recommend AGAINST using the system the way Vortex does. LOOT should be regarded like a spelling, or grammar, checker.. It's great for a first pass to fix the most egregious problems, but it STILL needs a human hand..... One that has actually learnt how to build a load order, rather than relying on automation.

I've actually tried Vortex a couple of times now (and having modded Beth games since Morrowind, I KNOW what I'm doing by this point).... Just, no thanks.

No doubt Vortex is great for some people, but I'm not one of them. I want full control over the install process, and that includes being able to easily drag and drop mods.HadToRegister wrote:

I don't understand why there needs to be an argument over manual load order sorting, it's a simple feature why not just add it for those that want it, make it an option we can activate in the settings if you dont want it on by default

 

and dont give me that "new way of thinking" or "accept change", neither of those are an acceptable excuse to ignore a not insignificant portion of your user base

Another Argumentum ad Populum.

 

I too don't understand why there needs to be an argument about manual load order sorting, if you'd take the time to learn how to set rules in Vortex, or just drag and drop one plugin before or after another, you'd see how easy and quick it is.

People are just arguing FOR Manual Load Order Sorting just "Because"

 

Personally I don't understand why people want to keep an outdated and archaic way of doing your load order, when manual sorting allows you to mess it up fabulously.

I'd be interested in knowing the source of this, and where it is. Please can you provide it?

Even the LOOT devs recommend AGAINST using the system the way Vortex does

Amazing to see that Sonja had so many issues with vortex but never opened a single ticket. however, is fully prepared to shitpost about it. very odd behaviour.

its a cut/paste job from a post on the UFO4P forums.

Do you have the source of that? I'd like to know where it comes from so I can better understand why it's being mentioned.

try this;

 

https://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/3502925-the-unofficial-fallout-4-patch/page-702&do=findComment&comment=72201488

 

if that doesn't work, it's post #7014.

[Dark0ne]

In response to post #72306943.

1ae0bfb8 wrote:

 

In response to post #72305858.

1ae0bfb8 wrote:

its a cut/paste job from a post on the UFO4P forums.

In response to post #72260498. #72302373 is also a reply to the same post.

Sonja wrote: I don't understand why there needs to be an argument over it either.
For me, it's quite simple; I don't use Vortex, and I never will. I'm still sticking with the tried and true... I install with Wrye Bash, do an initial pass with LOOT, and then tweak manually in Wrye Bash... wonderful, simple and intuitive. In all the years I've used it, Wrye Mash/Bash/Smash/Flash has never failed me.
Even the LOOT devs recommend AGAINST using the system the way Vortex does. LOOT should be regarded like a spelling, or grammar, checker.. It's great for a first pass to fix the most egregious problems, but it STILL needs a human hand..... One that has actually learnt how to build a load order, rather than relying on automation.
I've actually tried Vortex a couple of times now (and having modded Beth games since Morrowind, I KNOW what I'm doing by this point).... Just, no thanks.
No doubt Vortex is great for some people, but I'm not one of them. I want full control over the install process, and that includes being able to easily drag and drop mods.HadToRegister wrote:

I don't understand why there needs to be an argument over manual load order sorting, it's a simple feature why not just add it for those that want it, make it an option we can activate in the settings if you dont want it on by default

and dont give me that "new way of thinking" or "accept change", neither of those are an acceptable excuse to ignore a not insignificant portion of your user base

Another Argumentum ad Populum.

I too don't understand why there needs to be an argument about manual load order sorting, if you'd take the time to learn how to set rules in Vortex, or just drag and drop one plugin before or after another, you'd see how easy and quick it is.
People are just arguing FOR Manual Load Order Sorting just "Because"

Personally I don't understand why people want to keep an outdated and archaic way of doing your load order, when manual sorting allows you to mess it up fabulously.

I'd be interested in knowing the source of this, and where it is. Please can you provide it?

Even the LOOT devs recommend AGAINST using the system the way Vortex does

Amazing to see that Sonja had so many issues with vortex but never opened a single ticket. however, is fully prepared to shitpost about it. very odd behaviour.

its a cut/paste job from a post on the UFO4P forums.

Do you have the source of that? I'd like to know where it comes from so I can better understand why it's being mentioned.

try this;

 

https://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/3502925-the-unofficial-fallout-4-patch/page-702&do=findComment&comment=72201488

 

if that doesn't work, it's post #7014.

Ah, that, and the subsequent posts, definitely put some context to it. Though it still provides no reference to where the LOOT devs claimed it shouldn't be used in this manner. Classic case of "Chinese whispers" here. Thanks! Edited August 5, 2019 by Dark0ne

[HadToRegister]

 

In response to post #72260498. #72302373, #72304623, #72304753 are all replies on the same post.

 

 

 

HadToRegister wrote:

I don't understand why there needs to be an argument over manual load order sorting, it's a simple feature why not just add it for those that want it, make it an option we can activate in the settings if you dont want it on by default

 

and dont give me that "new way of thinking" or "accept change", neither of those are an acceptable excuse to ignore a not insignificant portion of your user base

Another Argumentum ad Populum.

 

I too don't understand why there needs to be an argument about manual load order sorting, if you'd take the time to learn how to set rules in Vortex, or just drag and drop one plugin before or after another, you'd see how easy and quick it is.

People are just arguing FOR Manual Load Order Sorting just "Because"

 

Personally I don't understand why people want to keep an outdated and archaic way of doing your load order, when manual sorting allows you to mess it up fabulously.

Sonja wrote: I don't understand why there needs to be an argument over it either.

For me, it's quite simple; I don't use Vortex, and I never will. I'm still sticking with the tried and true... I install with Wrye Bash, do an initial pass with LOOT, and then tweak manually in Wrye Bash... wonderful, simple and intuitive. In all the years I've used it, Wrye Mash/Bash/Smash/Flash has never failed me.

Even the LOOT devs recommend AGAINST using the system the way Vortex does. LOOT should be regarded like a spelling, or grammar, checker.. It's great for a first pass to fix the most egregious problems, but it STILL needs a human hand..... One that has actually learnt how to build a load order, rather than relying on automation.

I've actually tried Vortex a couple of times now (and having modded Beth games since Morrowind, I KNOW what I'm doing by this point).... Just, no thanks.

No doubt Vortex is great for some people, but I'm not one of them. I want full control over the install process, and that includes being able to easily drag and drop mods.

 

Do note, I am neither "crying" nor "arguing" here. I don't care if people want to use Vortex, their game, their problem. I simply have no plans to use it personally, and I'm glad we have the choice.

Dark0ne wrote:

Even the LOOT devs recommend AGAINST using the system the way Vortex does

I'd be interested in knowing the source of this, and where it is. Please can you provide it?

Dark0ne wrote: Ah, so you didn't read it from a LOOT dev, but instead you heard it from someone else saying that a LOOT dev had said it?

 

Sigh.

I'd actually prefer not to. Suffice to say, it was highly credible source, and I'm inclined to believe it.

I realise that doesn't exactly back up my "case," but that's OK, because I'm not really trying to make one.

 

 

 

Do you know what the term "Burden of proof" means?

 

If you're not going to provide a source or citation, why bring it up at all as anything other than an "Appeal to authority"?

[DSPiron]

Most importantly, we don't have any problem with people saying "I prefer the old method to the new method". The point of contention comes about when the old method is presented as the best method merely on the basis of it being "the old method", without any logic to support that argument.

Manual sorting is just taking a 'plugin'(.ESM,.ESP,.ESL) and dragging it into its position on a list. This, of course, opens up issues if the user doesn't know where the mod belongs. Thus Vortex's automatic sorting method.

 

However, this might not put the mod exactly where it needs to be, or the user is experienced, they might know a better spot.

Changing a load order in Vortex/LOOT is less simple and less intuitive than manual sorting, as the user must add a new rule (or two), or a assign the 'plugin' to a group, so LOOT can correct the load order.

This adds a layer of obfuscation, as the rule/group assign might not work. Perhaps LOOT overshot it and put after several others. Or its not moving the 'plugin' at all. Or there's some other rules/grouping that require 'plugin' to be before the other one, causing a cycle of rules.

 

None of this is insurmountable, perhaps it all might be avoided if the user thinks less of a list, and more a network of positional relations between 'plugins'.

 

But manual sorting still avoids all of the above,

and so the user can focus on what comes after:

•Testing, (•Maybe finding out that they were wrong, and •Moving the 'plugin' again), and •Moving on to the next 'plugin'.

 

Granted, I'm not that big of a mod user, I just, try to follow this discussion.

[AugustaCalidia]

In response to post #72310523.

DSPiron wrote:

Most importantly, we don't have any problem with people saying "I prefer the old method to the new method". The point of contention comes about when the old method is presented as the best method merely on the basis of it being "the old method", without any logic to support that argument.

Manual sorting is just taking a 'plugin'(.ESM,.ESP,.ESL) and dragging it into its position on a list. This, of course, opens up issues if the user doesn't know where the mod belongs. Thus Vortex's automatic sorting method.

However, this might not put the mod exactly where it needs to be, or the user is experienced, they might know a better spot.
Changing a load order in Vortex/LOOT is less simple and less intuitive than manual sorting, as the user must add a new rule (or two), or a assign the 'plugin' to a group, so LOOT can correct the load order.
This adds a layer of obfuscation, as the rule/group assign might not work. Perhaps LOOT overshot it and put after several others. Or its not moving the 'plugin' at all. Or there's some other rules/grouping that require 'plugin' to be before the other one, causing a cycle of rules.

None of this is insurmountable, perhaps it all might be avoided if the user thinks less of a list, and more a network of positional relations between 'plugins'.

But manual sorting still avoids all of the above,
and so the user can focus on what comes after:
•Testing, (•Maybe finding out that they were wrong, and •Moving the 'plugin' again), and •Moving on to the next 'plugin'.

Granted, I'm not that big of a mod user, I just, try to follow this discussion.

Although I think I know what you're trying to say, there's just enough ambiguity in your remarks to leave me confused. Would you please restate what issue you're responding to, and what your conclusion is?

[Arthmoor]

In response to post #72306943. #72307193 is also a reply to the same post.

1ae0bfb8 wrote:

 

In response to post #72305858.

1ae0bfb8 wrote:

its a cut/paste job from a post on the UFO4P forums.

In response to post #72260498. #72302373 is also a reply to the same post.

Sonja wrote: I don't understand why there needs to be an argument over it either.
For me, it's quite simple; I don't use Vortex, and I never will. I'm still sticking with the tried and true... I install with Wrye Bash, do an initial pass with LOOT, and then tweak manually in Wrye Bash... wonderful, simple and intuitive. In all the years I've used it, Wrye Mash/Bash/Smash/Flash has never failed me.
Even the LOOT devs recommend AGAINST using the system the way Vortex does. LOOT should be regarded like a spelling, or grammar, checker.. It's great for a first pass to fix the most egregious problems, but it STILL needs a human hand..... One that has actually learnt how to build a load order, rather than relying on automation.
I've actually tried Vortex a couple of times now (and having modded Beth games since Morrowind, I KNOW what I'm doing by this point).... Just, no thanks.
No doubt Vortex is great for some people, but I'm not one of them. I want full control over the install process, and that includes being able to easily drag and drop mods.HadToRegister wrote:

I don't understand why there needs to be an argument over manual load order sorting, it's a simple feature why not just add it for those that want it, make it an option we can activate in the settings if you dont want it on by default

and dont give me that "new way of thinking" or "accept change", neither of those are an acceptable excuse to ignore a not insignificant portion of your user base

Another Argumentum ad Populum.

I too don't understand why there needs to be an argument about manual load order sorting, if you'd take the time to learn how to set rules in Vortex, or just drag and drop one plugin before or after another, you'd see how easy and quick it is.
People are just arguing FOR Manual Load Order Sorting just "Because"

Personally I don't understand why people want to keep an outdated and archaic way of doing your load order, when manual sorting allows you to mess it up fabulously.

I'd be interested in knowing the source of this, and where it is. Please can you provide it?

Even the LOOT devs recommend AGAINST using the system the way Vortex does

Amazing to see that Sonja had so many issues with vortex but never opened a single ticket. however, is fully prepared to shitpost about it. very odd behaviour.

its a cut/paste job from a post on the UFO4P forums.

Do you have the source of that? I'd like to know where it comes from so I can better understand why it's being mentioned.

try this;

 

https://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/3502925-the-unofficial-fallout-4-patch/page-702&do=findComment&comment=72201488

 

if that doesn't work, it's post #7014.

Dark0ne wrote: Ah, that, and the subsequent posts, definitely put some context to it. Though it still provides no reference to where the LOOT devs claimed it shouldn't be used in this manner. Classic case of "Chinese whispers" here. Thanks!

Why not just go ask them? It's not like they hide from their opinions on these matters. Especially when they've been asked about it, ans answered it, on their own Discord server for all to see.

They don't even claim LOOT itself is sufficient for managing things entirely, even within the context of setting up rules. They fully acknowledge the place manual load order sorting has in the community and they've never once tried to claim LOOT or anything relying on it can make that a thing of the past.