The Fall of the West.

[Mudran]

It is sad that this topic is 2 years old and it got only worse, on the other hand - is being able to finally see what is wrong worse if it has been there for years?

I know this video is not related 100%, but it is somehow - the problem of USA is different from European - it is crisis of capitalism which has to change, but nobody knows how, while in Europe it is more related to EU. But generally it is crisis of christianity. 

Some would call it islamophobia and actually it is even worse. It is connection of all "totalistic" groups - radicalisation of minor groups in USA, which now dictates what you are allowed to say or not, and they lead USA to poverty and chaos. So I wish people would stop support something "minor" if it will become basically evil. 

Then it is overflow of Europe with islam as it's newest replacement for Christianity, only there is no democracy it it, and somewhere on the top there is a group which does want a new order. 

At it's core it is upcomming totalism, I'm still not sure which group will win. Some think that group is connected to Russia and China, but I'm not sure if it is not from EU itself. Because EU is now trying to control education and spread message where they try to lower nationalism - you should support EU instead. They kept the health care and natural products, but replaces tibet with islam. 

So if you would want describe totalism - they always try to eliminate jewish, because they are independent, then they want to remove all religions, because there is hope in it, now they want to lower masculinity, so there would be no resistance, and then a new order will come=new totalism. 

Still I feel some hope lately. 

 

 

[ScytheBearer]

Oh fuggit.  Let's get this topic locked. 

The rant against "militant Islam" needs to be given equal time with a rant against "militant Christianity" and "militant Judaism".  Shouts for the implementation of Sharia law should be compared with the shouts to implement Biblical law and Talmudic law.  "Horrors committed by Muslim extremists" should be compared to "Horrors committed by Christian Extremist" and "Horrors committed by Jewish extremists".

The problem isn't any one of these superstitions, because such superstitions are like diapers, they change often and generally for the same reason.  No, the problem is the extremists who push aggressively to suppress the other superstitions while getting their superstition made supreme.  Worse are the mindless, unthinking adherents to these superstitions who make up the followers of the charismatic leaders in each superstition.  These mobs are tools being used by those who endeavor to foment wars with the other superstition's extremists.  These herding hoards are the armies of those who are attempting to overthrow governments to get their superstition top billing. 

Bottom line, don't bash the extremists from one superstition without bashing the extremists from the other superstitions in the same breath.  The ONLY difference between these extremists is the spelling of their names. 

[JediMasterTallyn]

On 5/31/2024 at 2:19 PM, ScytheBearer said:

Oh fuggit.  Let's get this topic locked. 

The rant against "militant Islam" needs to be given equal time with a rant against "militant Christianity" and "militant Judaism".  Shouts for the implementation of Sharia law should be compared with the shouts to implement Biblical law and Talmudic law.  "Horrors committed by Muslim extremists" should be compared to "Horrors committed by Christian Extremist" and "Horrors committed by Jewish extremists".

The problem isn't any one of these superstitions, because such superstitions are like diapers, they change often and generally for the same reason.  No, the problem is the extremists who push aggressively to suppress the other superstitions while getting their superstition made supreme.  Worse are the mindless, unthinking adherents to these superstitions who make up the followers of the charismatic leaders in each superstition.  These mobs are tools being used by those who endeavor to foment wars with the other superstition's extremists.  These herding hoards are the armies of those who are attempting to overthrow governments to get their superstition top billing. 

Bottom line, don't bash the extremists from one superstition without bashing the extremists from the other superstitions in the same breath.  The ONLY difference between these extremists is the spelling of their names. 

You forgot that each and every  single one of them pray to the EXACT same deity of love forgiveness understanding and sacrifice and yet they all have hated each other for 4000 years of recorded human history.
 

This is why religious debates are banned everywhere, no one is willing to admit they have bad apple in their cart.

[ScytheBearer]

12 hours ago, JediMasterTallyn said:

You forgot that each and every  single one of them pray to the EXACT same deity of love forgiveness understanding and sacrifice and yet they all have hated each other for 4000 years of recorded human history.
 

This is why religious debates are banned everywhere, no one is willing to admit they have bad apple in their cart.

 My comment is not about any specific superstition, what god or gods they worship, what dogma they follow, or even who they hate.   So, don't drag any superstition's dogma into any discussion based on my comment.  I could have easily included "militant Hindu", Manu Law, and "horrors committed by Hindu extremists" in the litany of extremists and their actions.  Had I done so, your unnecessary and distracting comment would have exactly the same relationship to my post as it does now, IE none.  

Superstitions are not extremists, people are extremists, and my comment was about people.  My post is a commentary on the over zealous, power mad leaders who use extremist views to weaponize their particular superstition and inflame hatred of "the other" in their brain dead followers.  It is about those mindless, unthinking masses who slavishly follow these charismatic leaders and openly foment war and attempt to over throw governments to fulfill the lust to power which consumes their illustrious leader.  It is about the symbiosis between power mad leaders and stupid followers.  And THAT extends beyond superstitions.

 

 

[RomanR]

To don't want deteriotate this thread much further but I would like to add some words about this too. The extremist problem mostly goes from incompatibility of the culture of western world with the rest. Most imigrants came here for easier life only to find that life here is much more complex and there is nothing free too. They are paralyzed by choices and unable to cope with them. And so they want their simplier world back, unable to see that if they get it, their life will be same as if they didn't come here in the end.

Regarding religion - besides of give you moral imperatives, they try to explain origin of our world for example. Funny is, scientist determined that our universe has its beginning (Big Bang theory), but they're mostly unable to explain what triggered it. As before that was simply nothing for us, so one could come to conclusion that force triggering it must be external. And to see inner complexity of our world and nature in it, sometimes is hard to believe that it all came from pure randomness and chaos. Still,  such force is propably outside our universe and if it don't choose to reveal itself, we will never know of its nature. 

Really, most problems which humans have are of human origin, so blaming some force is rather futile. And there is nothing to solve them or work instead of you, if you never make at least attempt to do something yourself.

And in the end at least something relevant a little to this thread. Not long ago I readed on Ars Technica that now USA's electricity comes 60% from renewable sources and at a same price as from non-renewables. Really a slap to EU's Green Deal. It's not from laziness of Europeans itself (my country has 3,7% average unemployment decade rate now, 2,6% by Czech Statistical Office from August 2023), so it's inefective goverment and use of resources to blame it seems.

[aurreth]

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To don't want deteriotate this thread much further but I would like to add some words about this too. The extremist problem mostly goes from incompatibility of the culture of western world with the rest. Most imigrants came here for easier life only to find that life here is much more complex and there is nothing free too. They are paralyzed by choices and unable to cope with them. And so they want their simplier world back, unable to see that if they get it, their life will be same as if they didn't come here in the end.

Pure xenophobia.  In the United States the primary terrorist threat is from White Nationalists.  All statistics show that immigrants are more law abiding than native born Americans.

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Regarding religion - besides of give you moral imperatives

Morality does not require religion.  If you need a deity to tell you right from wrong the problem is you. 

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Funny is, scientist determined that our universe has its beginning (Big Bang theory), but they're mostly unable to explain what triggered it. As before that was simply nothing for us, so one could come to conclusion that force triggering it must be external. And to see inner complexity of our world and nature in it, sometimes is hard to believe that it all came from pure randomness and chaos.

God of the Gaps.  It is perfectly acceptable to say "we don't know", and then "why don't we try to find out."  It's certainly more intellectually honest.

[HeyYou]

Or maybe it is just a repeating cycle, that has been going on... forever? The universe expands to it's maximum, the contracts back to it's minimum, BANG, it starts expanding again.

[RomanR]

20 hours ago, HeyYou said:

Or maybe it is just a repeating cycle, that has been going on... forever? The universe expands to it's maximum, the contracts back to it's minimum, BANG, it starts expanding again.

Who knows? It's one of many theories trying to predict a future of our universe. Nothing in our universe is infinite, yet we observe events in ongoing cycles, repeating themselves, yet not completely same. For example if our universe really implodes back, the next one could be completely different or not, but it surely it will be not exactly same as before due the forces of chaos or enthropy at work.

Same for life cycle. If the reincarnation exists, my next life will consist of same life cycle as before (from to be born to die). But my life experience can be completely different. There is no even quarantie that I will spend my next life on Earth or in human body. Only one thing is sure - due the fact that my former body will not exist, my next life can't be exactly same as before.

But such  mysteries are for scientist, theologists or philosophers, search for answers will keep them busy propably forever.

[Mudran]

We should be against anything "radical" don't you think?

The point is - radical islam is now excluded from that group of dangerous philosophies for some reason.

I believe it is important to divide that - pieceful islam and radical islam, because people who don't like islam don't doing it a good service if they say it is the same, because then it does fit the rhetorics that it is ok - it is just another religion. But I believe it is not, it is a tool for totalism, (the same way as christianity was), which first took over middle east. There are disidents from Iran who cried for help and  the west didn't answer, now the militant version is comming to the west.

But as I said, the problem is bigger, they are also ment to be just a tool - maybe to roll over christianity, or Israel, I don't know yet. Maybe China is actually behind it and maybe it is about neocomunism after all. It just seems like there is a group which would like western culture to be destroyed. And people don't resist that - they will go after "white males" etc and they will spread this hateful new culture. 

But I guess it cannot be helped - there will always be some hostile take over, maybe it is what humanity is about - constant war. 

 

[aurreth]

8 hours ago, Mudran said:

the same way as christianity was

Was?  WAS?

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you don't live in the United States, where one of the two major political parties is actively trying to subvert democracy in order to turn the country into a theocratic autocracy.

Christian nationalism is as great an existential threat as militant Islam.