Simple manual load ordering plz

[Grestorn]

Well, you might think that your arguments are valid, but I don't. And vice-versa, obviously. That's just the way it is.

 

Maybe you realize that in this case, there's just one side showing intolerance of a differing opinion.

 

I had to tolerate your opinion not to support VR. I obviously didn't agree, I argumented against it, but I didn't call you "intolerant" or "stubborn". Your mods, your call, your decision. I have to live with that, no matter how much I hate it.

 

Why you think you have the right to bully the Vortex dev team into seeing things your way and to call them "stubborn" and "intolerant" when they don't, is really beyond me.

 

So again, maybe you should learn to look in the mirror sometimes. That can be helpful.

 

Have a good night.

[UrizenDe]

Question back: How would you know that a mod suddenly has different load order requirements WITHOUT LOOT/Vortex?

Because I regularly check on my used mods to see if there´s an update and if there is, if something has changed. And yes there were mods in the early days of skyrim where the loadorder in relation to other mods changed. Or where mods had been completely rebuilt in the CK because they were originally created with SNIP. Again changing their position in the LO.

 

Or is this again about the fear of the load order getting changed without your knowledge? Then let me repeat: A change in the plugin order doesn't destroy your ongoing game. It just doesn't.

You have been provided with an example for a mod that doesn´t like it, when mods it accesses change their mod index ( I´m talking Vilja here ).

[Grestorn]

 

You have been provided with an example for a mod that doesn´t like it, when mods it accesses change their mod index ( I´m talking Vilja here ).

 

 

If that mod really breaks and corrupts a save game if its index changes, then it is obviously violating EVERY rule there is. You're looking at the wrong guys to blame for that. Such a mod would break about EVERY save game, sooner or later. You cannot expect the load order to never change.

 

What happens if you add a DLC to your ongoing game, for example? You know what: The load order changes! ALL the mods below the DLC (which is always a master) will get a new index. And adding a DLC throughout a playthrough is not only to be expected, it's officially supported by Bethesda.

 

Load order changes MUST NOT cause any problem. If it does, then your mod is seriously broken.

 

And the matter of the fact is, that you REALLY have to screw up badly to even make your mod to be dependent on its index. Like actively using the index in scripts without using the proper API functions. EVERYTHING in the CK and script engine is created to be NOT index dependent.

[UrizenDe]

If that mod really breaks and corrupts a save game if its index changes, then it is obviously violating EVERY rule there is. You're looking at the wrong guys to blame for that. Such a mod would break about EVERY save game, sooner or later. You cannot expect the load order to never change.

You have not read what I wrote. What was written by someone else. Again. Vilja can be in the same spot as always, it´s mods it accesses that are the problem.

Also, DLCs have a fixed position. The last game where that wasn´t the case was Oblivion IIRC. So add DLCs all day long, thanks to their fixed position, scripting doesn´t have to be nearly as dynamic as you claim it needs to be.

[Tannin42]

That's a bit like trying to argue I need to buy a Mac and use OS X before I can conclude it's not something I want to spend my money on because it's not suitable for what I need the computer for.

a) Vortex is free, there is no barrier to trying it

b) Yes, you absolutely need to have used Mac OS before you're qualified to conclude that something else is better.

Is that seriously not obvious? If you don't want to try Mac OS that's your choice and fine, but maybe don't talk and advice about it then?

No one is asking you to use Vortex but you shouldn't be telling people to not use it or that they are wrong for using it when you have no own experience with it.

 

Yep, works quite well, and I've resorted to doing that on occasion.

 

 

 

May I remind you of your own post further up

 

And in having to resort to using Wrye Bash to accomplish this, you have invalidated any reason to be using Vortex for games Wrye Bash supports.

 

 

Sooo, going by your own logic, your resorting to notepad apparently proves that Wrye Bash is no better than manual mod management with notepad and 7zip and you should do that instead.

 

You can also dispense with the silliness about space shuttles and such. That's not an argument, it's just more of the usual I expect when someone has no argument to make.

 

No it's not an argument, It's an analogy. The argument - that you'd have needed to find between the lines, not too well hidden - is that tools evolve, Wrye Bash too is an evolution over the way it has always been done before that.

 

Actually, no, I have not told anyone not to use it. You're thinking of MO, but that's ok, feel free to make up more bogus reasons to attack me if that's what you want.

 

Someone hacked your account then I guess?

 

Here's some of your posts on that topic:

 

Since it doesn't allow for manual load order adjustment it's not something I'd recommend people be using.

My personal preference is Wrye Bash, but if you don't want that then I'd suggest NMM. Stay away from Vortex.

I'm not sure at this point - I mean - I told you I searched through the comment sections of your mods, you could have known I read those posts.

What was the point of acting like you weren't (yet) actively telling people to avoid Vortex?

Were you hoping that I didn't know how to use a search function or that people would read only your post and not the inevitable reply and believe that I actually made that up?

[Arthmoor]

Maybe you realize that in this case, there's just one side showing intolerance of a differing opinion.

Yes, there is just one side doing that and it's certainly not my side.

 

I had to tolerate your opinion not to support VR. I obviously didn't agree, I argumented against it, but I didn't call you "intolerant" or "stubborn". Your mods, your call, your decision. I have to live with that, no matter how much I hate it.

This is fundamentally different from tolerating one's opition or argument. This is tolerating a decision that's been made. You certainly don't have to agree, but the VR community proved without a shadow of a doubt that it's not even capable of accepting the decision after their own behavior determined that outcome.

 

Why you think you have the right to bully the Vortex dev team into seeing things your way and to call them "stubborn" and "intolerant" when they don't, is really beyond me.

I'm not bullying anyone itno anything. I'm trying to make a case here, but it's become exceedingly obvious nobody on the dev teem ever wanted to consider an opposing viewpoint to start with.

 

So again, maybe you should learn to look in the mirror sometimes. That can be helpful.

Take your own advice in this case. Then examine those you associate with and ask yourself if that kind of aggressive community who support piracy to achieve their ends is really something you want to be part of.

 

 

b) Yes, you absolutely need to have used Mac OS before you're qualified to conclude that something else is better.

No. I don't. Why should I have to use OS X to know it won't support the kind of gaming I want to do. If you're suggesting I have the right to ask Apple to do so, then why are you attacking me for trying to suggest you implement a critical feature I'd need before considering Vortex?

 

This logic doesn't track. I have no idea why you'd make that argument.

 

Is that seriously not obvious? If you don't want to try Mac OS that's your choice and fine, but maybe don't talk and advice about it then?

I'm entirely qualified to tell people it doesn't support things they need it to support. You're being ... I can't think of the word right now ... if you think someone has to actually spend that kind of money to find this out on their own.

 

No one is asking you to use Vortex but you shouldn't be telling people to not use it or that they are wrong for using it when you have no own experience with it.

Yes, I should be telling people not to use Vortex if manual load order adjustment is as important to them as it is to me. Why do I need to try something you yourself have said won't ever get that feature if I consider it fundamentally necessary?

 

Sooo, going by your own logic, your resorting to notepad apparently proves that Wrye Bash is no better than manual mod management with notepad and 7zip and you should do that instead.

This ignores the possible reasons for why I might have needed to resort to that. It had nothing to do with Wrye Bash developers taking away a core feature of mod management, so you can't equate the 2 here.

 

tools evolve

Evolution is supposed to be beneficial to the species. Forgive me if I see your development decisions as more of a cancer or an unfavorable mutation instead.

 

 

Actually, no, I have not told anyone not to use it. You're thinking of MO, but that's ok, feel free to make up more bogus reasons to attack me if that's what you want.

Someone hacked your account then I guess?

 

Here's some of your posts on that topic:

 

Since it doesn't allow for manual load order adjustment it's not something I'd recommend people be using.

My personal preference is Wrye Bash, but if you don't want that then I'd suggest NMM. Stay away from Vortex.

I'm not sure at this point - I mean - I told you I searched through the comment sections of your mods, you could have known I read those posts.

What was the point of acting like you weren't (yet) actively telling people to avoid Vortex?

Were you hoping that I didn't know how to use a search function or that people would read only your post and not the inevitable reply and believe that I actually made that up?

 

You can expect those kinds of posts to actually get made in earnest now considering your attitude in all of this. If someone flat out asks, you can damn well bet I would have told them Wrye Bash is my recommendation.

Or am I not free to have offered my opinions on the subject at all? Is that freedom only reserved for people who agree with you? Cause you're certainly making it sound that way.

 

What I suggested I'd be doing going forward is a lot more proactive than just answering one-offs on the subject. As someone else pointed out, it may well evolve into revoking support to anyone using Vortex and reporting issues known to be caused by faulty load orders. You don't get a say in whether or not I start doing that either.

[Zanderat]

 

Or is this again about the fear of the load order getting changed without your knowledge? Then let me repeat: A change in the plugin order doesn't destroy your ongoing game. It just doesn't.

You have been provided with an example for a mod that doesn´t like it, when mods it accesses change their mod index ( I´m talking Vilja here ).

 

I have to jump in here. I have used Vilja in both LE and SE and have messed with load order all the time. I have never had any trouble.

[Jebbalon]

I'm the one that brought up Vilja as an example of using Form ID lists and how that could create a mess while changing load order. (the first time I brought it up I mentioned that this was how I thought that mod worked I wasn't 100% sure)

Arthmoor's explanation of how Papyrus uses plugin names not load index to keep track of things in the save - that pretty much confirmed that this case should not be a worry. So, load order changes is not a problem during a playthrough....

 

@Tannin

Documentation - Please! - I haven't tried the 0.16 testing versions yet and they do mention more documentation. I still think better explaining this stuff will help.

 

@Arthmoor

This is my understanding of these things - as someone who agrees with both sides of this issue! - I've used all the tools mentioned also.

 

1 - Using LOOT provides sorting with a master list as well as an algorithm (maybe not that order) then there is user defined rules.

2 - In NMM or WB you can adjust plugins manually with the drag & drop method.

3 - After drag & drop you are able to go back into LOOT and setup the user defined rules for those plugins.

4 - Using LOOT to sort again will apply the user defined rules giving the load order you want.

 

That's what Vortex does.

You We have been used to stopping at #2 - sure we may know the next time we use LOOT to do #3 and 4 but it's not essential at the time. If it comes up every time for a particular mod then we can submit a rule to the masterlist for everyone to benefit.

Vortex just does all 4 of those steps together and the drag & drop to create rules is accomplished in several ways.

 

Watch Gopher's recently updated video on load order in Vortex to see basic explanation of these ways.

 

and No, Tannin that video is not sufficient explanation - as I said before you need to explain the manual method as well as the rules method and why the latter is being used over the former.

Edited September 8, 2018 by Jebbalon

[Grestorn]

 

If that mod really breaks and corrupts a save game if its index changes, then it is obviously violating EVERY rule there is. You're looking at the wrong guys to blame for that. Such a mod would break about EVERY save game, sooner or later. You cannot expect the load order to never change.

You have not read what I wrote. What was written by someone else. Again. Vilja can be in the same spot as always, it´s mods it accesses that are the problem.

Also, DLCs have a fixed position. The last game where that wasn´t the case was Oblivion IIRC. So add DLCs all day long, thanks to their fixed position, scripting doesn´t have to be nearly as dynamic as you claim it needs to be.

 

 

It doesn't matter if it's your own mod's index or other mod's index you depend on: Both is breaking and illegal. It's not hard to load other mods dynamically (without having them as master) and still not being dependent on their index.

 

There are countless mods out there who can do that properly. There are best practices for that. If you depend on ANY mod's index, then your mod is broken, end of story. There is not even a discussion about that.

 

 

/Edit: After reading the rest of the postings I understand that this whole Vilja thing was actually just hearsay. No known mod, including Vilja is depending on any mod's index. There is just one known example Tannin brought up, where a mod used an index to store items in an extrenal file (not the save game) and thereby circumventing the internal mechanisms which make sure that the index of all stored data is handled properly. However, since a very long time (in Oldrim), there are libraries for storing data externally (mod index save) by the way.

 

 

So this is moot. Please finally understand that the fear of breaking a game because the load order has been changed is nothing but paranoia and completely unfounded. It would be nice, if people would just accept that as a fact. I have the feeling that this whole discussion about automatic vs. manual load order management here has been really polluted by that fear.

 

 

I'm not going to write anything on Arthmoor any longer. Everything is plainly to read here for anyone who cares.

[HadToRegister]

Can I just jump in here and mention that I currently have a thread in this forum called "How to edit rules in italics" where I'm still trying to find out how to edit the MASTERLIST rules assigned to a mod, because it's making it impossible to sort my load order because of the lengthy list of built in Masterlist Sorting Rules, that I can't change?

YES, the esp is a patch from "Unique NPCS - An Overhaul of the Commonwealth"
It has a patch for Better Settlers which ends ups completely destroying the entire MASTERLIST, , as will any mod that doesn't follow the Masterlist.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Moving on....
The "Masterlist" only works if people take the time to report, IN DETAIL, what the problem/interaction between mods was.

NOW....go to ANY mod page on the Nexus, that has..."a Description Tab, A Description of the Mod on the Download tab, A STICKY explaining what the Mod does, what the mod is, how to install the mod, etc...."

Now....look at the comment section of those mods, where you see comments that ask the same question over and over a million times, because the people asking the questions couldn't be arsed to even expend the energy to look up some answers for themselves, and would rather just ask a question, and wait, like a spider, for an answer, than to actually lift a finger and try and figure out something for themselves....

Now.....Imagine that THOSE PEOPLE ARE THE ONES SENDING IN THEIR LOAD ORDERS TO THE LOOT MASTERLIST.