Simple manual load ordering plz

[Jebbalon]

 

Vortex uses LOOT to sort, but if LOOT is somehow wrong or you need to make changes, you can within Vortex. You simply have different tools to do it. The fact of the matter is, Vortex has all the tools to resolve your issue in a timely fashion, but .....

*sigh* Well you were almost getting it - https://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/6582236-simple-manual-load-ordering-plz/?p=63414306

 

.....you want to manually sort because that's what you're used to and that's what you think is best for the situation. What we're looking for is an explanation of when you think it's best to use manual sorting over Vortex sorting (literally, a detailed and extensive use-case scenario, not a hypothetical), why you think it's best, and why you think Vortex's tools don't cut it. From the sheer number of posts you've made in these forums over the past few months, time and again the issue has been a lack of understanding of how Vortex works rather than a lack of functionality within Vortex. That's most certainly not intended as a dig at you, as it shows us that, somewhere in Vortex, we haven't got the UI or documentation up to scratch for your use-type.....

... then right back to ol' side A argument again. - https://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/6582236-simple-manual-load-ordering-plz/?p=63445446

 

............................................................

EDIT: How can I help make this position clearer?

Start promoting Vortex and its capabilities instead of continuing this back and forth argument that is going nowhere.

Edited September 10, 2018 by Jebbalon

[Grestorn]

 

I wanted to stay out of this, but now I have to ask HadToRegister:

 

What do you expect to happen once you've drag'n dropped a plugin?

What do you expect to happen with your dragged and dropped plugins when you change anything else (like enabling another mod)?

If I like where it's at, I'll set up a rule to keep it there. If I don't, I will find someplace that I DO like it, and do the same.

 

 

So should the "Always sort" (or whatever it's called, the left most icon in the mod tab) be disabled automatically when dragging a mod? Because otherwise the plugin would jump back right away (as by definition it would be auto-sorted right away)? Should the user be asked?

 

And if you change any other thing, should the usual auto-sort be disabled? I.e. the list remains unsorted and newly added plugins are just added at the end of the list? How do you explain that to the user, who has then a potentially invalid list? Especially since that's not the way Vortex is normally working?

 

What you want is the old way, I guess, where the user has to actively click a "sort" button to get it sorted. But that was when Sorting was an external tool that HAD to be initiated manually. Now, it's tightliy intergrated into every action that Vortex does. It would be very confusing for the user to disable the sorting, which is currently happening without any user interference, after you've done some manual changes. And it would lead to countless questions and errors. That's what Tannin means by "automatic and manual sorting doesn't work well together".

 

I understand the wish to drag a mod to some place and just test the outcome. But that would have to be a very specific scenario where it's clear that you're in some kind of "test mode" which is just temporarily used. After you leave this "test mode" the mods are sorted again according to your rules. That could certainly be implemented, but the effort to do that, is substantial. That's probably why Tannin doesn't like to do it, especially since it seems that most people would never need it.

 

And another thing: How do you define an exact position in the load order? That's a genuine question, I'd like you to answer! If you drag a plugin to some place in the list, how would you, in technical terms, describe that place you dragged it to? So that the tool can work with it and retain that position in the future. Please anser that question.

[Tannin42]

OK, then I will suggest/request a much easier way to see which plugins are indexed locked, rather than having to double-click on each one individually, I'm suggesting/requesting that it should be placed right there on the main Plugins Tab, right there with

 

Absolutely not. The index lock is intended to be an exception, e.g. when you're working on your own mod or are hellbent on resolving conflicts through trial and error (which is already not a great idea). For those use cases the current system works just fine, it's not going to take you more than a few seconds to open the sidebar and type in a number.

I will not make this feature more prominent so it takes up more space than absolutely necessary and where users might think locking the index of mods is an adequate way of doing load ordering.

 

Try purging your mod setup. It does seem to reset installation order of mods, it might help reset groups.

 

@Tannin42: Standalone LOOT allows user metadata to be reset. Is it planned for Vortex?

 

The latest version lets you reset groups because getting that graph back to the original state otherwise is borderline impossible.

The individual plugin rules you'd have to remove individually, there is no big "delete everything" button.

[UrizenDe]

The latest version lets you reset groups because getting that graph back to the original state otherwise is borderline impossible.

The individual plugin rules you'd have to remove individually, there is no big "delete everything" button.

That will be enough for me. Thanks for the info.

[sopmac45]

I understand the wish to drag a mod to some place and just test the outcome. But that would have to be a very specific scenario where it's clear that you're in some kind of "test mode" which is just temporarily used. After you leave this "test mode" the mods are sorted again according to your rules. That could certainly be implemented, but the effort to do that, is substantial. That's probably why Tannin doesn't like to do it, especially since it seems that most people would never need it.

 

>> I do agree with you Grestorn 100%. First of all, excellent questions that you've made, for those there are not a valid answers so far in this thread and if I remember correctly, long ago Tannin said that 90-95% of the players out there are practically unexperienced players, and I do agree with that as well, so basically, the majority would benefit from Vortex working in the way has been created, assuming of course, they do not fall in the trap that drag & drop is the solution to fix their load order. Hoping they just trust Vortex as it is, the great majority would benefit from it. I hope they are reading this thread and learn from it.

And another thing: How do you define an exact position in the load order? That's a genuine question, I'd like you to answer! If you drag a plugin to some place in the list, how would you, in technical terms, describe that place you dragged it to? So that the tool can work with it and retain that position in the future. Please anser that question.

>> Very straight to the point. Excellent question !!

[HeyYou]

I understand the wish to drag a mod to some place and just test the outcome. But that would have to be a very specific scenario where it's clear that you're in some kind of "test mode" which is just temporarily used. After you leave this "test mode" the mods are sorted again according to your rules. That could certainly be implemented, but the effort to do that, is substantial. That's probably why Tannin doesn't like to do it, especially since it seems that most people would never need it.

 

>> I do agree with you Grestorn 100%. First of all, excellent questions that you've made, for those there are not a valid answers so far in this thread and if I remember correctly, long ago Tannin said that 90-95% of the players out there are practically unexperienced players, and I do agree with that as well, so basically, the majority would benefit from Vortex working in the way has been created, assuming of course, they do not fall in the trap that drag & drop is the solution to fix their load order. Hoping they just trust Vortex as it is, the great majority would benefit from it. I hope they are reading this thread and learn from it.

And another thing: How do you define an exact position in the load order? That's a genuine question, I'd like you to answer! If you drag a plugin to some place in the list, how would you, in technical terms, describe that place you dragged it to? So that the tool can work with it and retain that position in the future. Please anser that question.

>> Very straight to the point. Excellent question !!

Manually moving a plugin would need to disable auto-sort. Once the user has found where they want said plugin, they would set a rule in accordance with standard practice, to keep it there. (after some plugin or other, or whatever) They would then re-enable auto sort, and life would be good. Highlighting mods that are currently manually sorted would likely be necessary, along with a warning before re-enabling auto-sort, that you have manually sorted plugins currently. If you enable auto-sort anyway, then the manually sorted plugins that don't have rules, would be sorted as vortex determined.

 

Manual sort would be for testing only. Vortex would in no way be required to do anything at all to accommodate manually sorted plugins. If there aren't any rules specified by the user, and auto-sort is re-enabled, Vortex would simply do what it would normally do.

[Grestorn]

You realize that a rule "A has to be after B" doesn't necessarily enforce a position in the list? It just enforces that A is after B, but it can be anywhere after B. Instead of moving A down below B, it can also be achieved by moving B further up so its above A. ANYwhere above A actually.

 

That's what I meant that "how to you define a position in the load order" is not that clear cut. Even saying "C has to be between A and B" is not clear. What if you remove B altogether? If there are 20 other mods between A and B?

 

And to make it worse, a fixed index (which was proposed) is even less desirable. Because a fixed index is a fixed index, not a fixed position. If you add a mod further up in the index, all plugins move down one place, with the exception of the one with the fixed index - which in turn would change its relative position against all other mods.

 

I write all this to show you, that expecting a plugin to be at a fixed position only makes sense, if you manage the whole list manually and then stick to that, period.

 

But as soon as you want to use sorting and rules, the only thing to define in a meaningful way, when testing the effects of a mod order change is "I want to see what happens if A is after B instead of what happens if A is before B". For this test, however, you don't need to drag and drop. You just need to define a rule and flip it. Or, if more than one plugin is involved, create groups for that purpose.

[Dark0ne]

Grestorn, HeyYou has been very open about the fact that he understands the rule-based system of LOOT/Vortex, but would simply prefer manual drag and drop load ordering. For him (from my understanding), it's down to preference, rather than a debate over which is more or less wrong. We do not need to prolong this debate based on any sort of misunderstanding as to how the system works and I don't think we need to do another twenty rounds as to how Vortex does things, else we'll invoke a "cyclical error" on this thread ;)

[Grestorn]

Ok, I'll shut my mouth.

 

But it's a dead horse maybe. I just should probably refrain from visiting this area for a while. That might be better for me and my relationship (which had to endure a blow yesterday just because some postings really affected me emotionally).

[HadToRegister]

 

OK, then I will suggest/request a much easier way to see which plugins are indexed locked, rather than having to double-click on each one individually, I'm suggesting/requesting that it should be placed right there on the main Plugins Tab, right there with

 

Absolutely not. The index lock is intended to be an exception, e.g. when you're working on your own mod or are hellbent on resolving conflicts through trial and error (which is already not a great idea). For those use cases the current system works just fine, it's not going to take you more than a few seconds to open the sidebar and type in a number.

I will not make this feature more prominent so it takes up more space than absolutely necessary and where users might think locking the index of mods is an adequate way of doing load ordering.

 

OK, then I'll propose this, how about at least a visual indicator, while leaving the switch where it's at?

At least that would allow to quickly see which Mods are Index locked, saving them having to double-click on every mod to check whether they are index locked or not, while the actual mechanism for locking/unlocking them would stay where it already is.

It could be as simple as changing the color of the Mod name or putting an asterisk next to the name etc.