Simple manual load ordering plz

[Zanderat]

I have done what HeyYou describes, sort of. I let set my order woth LOOT/Vortex, then made load order changes through WB to move mods around and test. It would be easier to keep it in one app but is not a deal breaker to use WB.

[sopmac45]

It has been advised by a lot of experienced people ( and it is widely posted in the net ) that changing load order or moving plugins here and there, will screw up with your game eventually.

 

I come from NMM, where I was able to move mods by just dragging them to where I wanted them to be. After a difficult mental process, I accepted Vortex the way it is and I love it. Now, I keep playing with my same mods and I have been introducing to my load order, new mods ... but not after I've read everything about it ( description, compatibility, watch videos, read all the posts, etc ) and once introduced in my load order, I just let Vortex to deal with the sort.

 

My current Skyrim game was crashing a lot, which is something not common to me because I keep playing with the same mods + some that I know are running fine, but there was a one mod I did not pay attention to it : colored big cities mod, was screwing with everything and was the mod responsible for my CTD's. I just "disable" the mod in Vortex and problem solved.

 

My point is that I understand dragging is fastest and simply but we need to move on and trust Vortex. Tannin will not introduce dragging till he is convinced that will be the best option. Honestly, I am not missing that at all and I love the fact that the only 2 things I need to do, is to setup my rules and put my patches in the correct group. That's it ! Beside other things that I am not going to mention but from Vortex stand point, those are the only 2 things I do and my games are running fine.

 

I stick to rules and I am not missing dragging and dropping at all. Just my personal opinion but I respect what others want. If it is introduce into Vortex, that will be completely fine to me as well but I doubt that Tannin will do it.

[HeyYou]

It has been advised by a lot of experienced people ( and it is widely posted in the net ) that changing load order or moving plugins here and there, will screw up with your game eventually.

 

I come from NMM, where I was able to move mods by just dragging them to where I wanted them to be. After a difficult mental process, I accepted Vortex the way it is and I love it. Now, I keep playing with my same mods and I have been introducing to my load order, new mods ... but not after I've read everything about it ( description, compatibility, watch videos, read all the posts, etc ) and once introduced in my load order, I just let Vortex to deal with the sort.

 

My current Skyrim game was crashing a lot, which is something not common to me because I keep playing with the same mods + some that I know are running fine, but there was a one mod I did not pay attention to it : colored big cities mod, was screwing with everything and was the mod responsible for my CTD's. I just "disable" the mod in Vortex and problem solved.

 

My point is that I understand dragging is fastest and simply but we need to move on and trust Vortex. Tannin will not introduce dragging till he is convinced that will be the best option. Honestly, I am not missing that at all and I love the fact that the only 2 things I need to do, is to setup my rules and put my patches in the correct group. That's it ! Beside other things that I am not going to mention but from Vortex stand point, those are the only 2 things I do and my games are running fine.

 

I stick to rules and I am not missing dragging and dropping at all. Just my personal opinion but I respect what others want. If it is introduce into Vortex, that will be completely fine to me as well but I doubt that Tannin will do it.

I don't expect that we will be able to come up with an argument that will 'convince' tannin to include drag and drop. He has already made his position eminently clear.

 

Also, there are occasions when the order loot/vortex puts mods in, isn't what I would actually like. See my previous example.

[HadToRegister]

Well, as I said in my post where I extolled the virtues of the "Manage Rules" window while trying to make a point, before it got immediately buried, dismissed, and cherry-picked...

The "Manage Rules" window is really powerful and handy, and I've put in a request to see if Tannin will add that ability to the MODS tab as well, it gives more control, or FEELS like it gives more control, but it also does away with scrolling in a very long load order, and you can set ALL of your load order rules right from one window, I find it far less confusing and intimidating than the other methods, another useful thing would be to have the "Enabled", "Disabled" filter on the plugins tab as well, especially for people who merge different versions of mods, or, temporarily put a mod in the DATA folder, in order to merge the contents of that esp into an enabled mod, to save ESP space, OR who have merged together two or more installed mods, and don't need the esps anymore.


Because I do that, I have a large number of disabled esps in my data folder that show up as DISABLED in the Plugins tab, and if I try to remove the disabled plugins (If they're connected to a BA2, then vortex insists on A. Removing the mod entirely (which I don't want), or B. Restoring the esps (Which again I don't want), so in a situation like this, being able to filter the "Enabled" and "Disabled" plugins would be awesome, and I hope this gets added to a future release.

[Jebbalon]

Well, as I said in my post where I extolled the virtues of the "Manage Rules" window while trying to make a point, before it got immediately buried, dismissed, and cherry-picked...

 

The "Manage Rules" window is really powerful and handy, and I've put in a request to see if Tannin will add that ability to the MODS tab as well, it gives more control, or FEELS like it gives more control, but it also does away with scrolling in a very long load order, and you can set ALL of your load order rules right from one window, I find it far less confusing and intimidating than the other methods, another useful thing would be to have the "Enabled", "Disabled" filter on the plugins tab as well, especially for people who merge different versions of mods, or, temporarily put a mod in the DATA folder, in order to merge the contents of that esp into an enabled mod, to save ESP space, OR who have merged together two or more installed mods, and don't need the esps anymore.

 

 

Because I do that, I have a large number of disabled esps in my data folder that show up as DISABLED in the Plugins tab, and if I try to remove the disabled plugins (If they're connected to a BA2, then vortex insists on A. Removing the mod entirely (which I don't want), or B. Restoring the esps (Which again I don't want), so in a situation like this, being able to filter the "Enabled" and "Disabled" plugins would be awesome, and I hope this gets added to a future release.

On Plugins tab - Sorting by Mod Index will put Disabled plugins up at the top or order. Enabled below that.

Sorting by Load Order will put disabled plugins according to their load order number (mod index is empty)

I can see wanting to not see the disabled plugins at all though.

If I have merged a plugin into another I'll go to Mods tab and disable that mod (also I'll put it into a merged category) as long as it doesn't have BSA or loose files with it.

[Arthmoor]

Christ, this is a new level of petty for you. It reflects poorly.

 

If you're going to question why Vortex has or has not got something when the question has already been asked and responded to (because you're too lazy to read through the thread), then question whether the creator should be "wasting his time" answering your repeated questions when you (and others) are the ones repeating them then, honestly, I don't even know what the hell you're doing here. Just leave. If it gets any more petty, I'll simply remove your posts.

So he's petty, and yet YOU respond this way? Uh huh. Deleting his posts because his valid argument rubs you wrong strikes me as the essence of pettiness. Subtly threatening to ban him over it is even more petty.

 

Reason for this entire thread is because no one understands both sides of the situation 100% and that includes Tannin.

 

Working with load order using NMM and LOOT ...

- Install mods with NMM

- Run LOOT to sort

- Run xEdit, Merge program, Bash Patch, xEdit again

- Manual drag and drop in NMM anything that needs to be adjusted

- Maybe run LOOT again during this process after merging or adding more mods

- Then, that's it - you start your play through and never run LOOT or drag & drop again. Changing load order during a playthrough can cause issues.

 

With Vortex there is Auto Sorting and Sorting - this is different than just using LOOT.

- Auto Sorting is always running - if you deploy mods from Mods tab it will sort - if you make a rule it will sort - if you do anything it will sort.

- You can disable Auto Sorting and use the Sorting button which is like using standalone LOOT - when you click it will sort the mods. If you set rules you have to click sort for the rules to take effect.

 

The issue in my opinion is not about having Manual Drag & Drop - there are several ways to order plugins in Vortex including the simple drag and create rule then sort to take effect.

The issue is coming up with a final load order and knowing that it will not change or, if it does change, being made aware of it.

 

Does this make any sense?

@Arthmoor - I'd like your input as well if you are still reading this thread.

My input remains the same as it always has, manual drag & drop load ordering is the simplest system that exists and LOOT was actually built with using it in mind. The two are not mutually exclusive. There's a reason that even MO had that ability, and one wonders why Tannin is ignoring this during this whole argument. If he really thought it was such a terrible thing, he should have tried to change minds with MO itself. That he did not tells me even he concedes the feature has a valid purpose. Especially since MO also linked itself to the LOOT API for the same purpose Vortex uses it.

 

So honestly I don't see it as the community's duty to convince him, he should be convincing the community that we've all been doing things the wrong way since Morrowind.

 

I'm open to hearing arguments from "the other side", that's why I'm still replying on this thread but tbh.

You are certainly not acting that way, given your predetermined position that you would never consider adding the feature to start with. A lot of perfectly sound arguments in favor of it have been made, and we're still here 7 months later because you actually are not listening.

 

You have a mod installed with scripts at mod index 2E

Everything in that mod now starts with 2E, , items, weapons, armor that the scripts access with a 2E prefix.

You sort the load order and now the mod sits at Mod Index 5F, now the scripts in the savegame that were accessing 2E, are left to fend for themselves, while the newly sorted mod starts accessing 5F.

You now have orphaned scripts still trying to find the 2E resources they were accessing because the mod was moved to a different place in the load order.

Nope. This isn't how things work in Skyrim and it never was. Scripts are keyed into the save by their filenames, not by their load order indexes. The only association that exists beyond that is what ESP file the VMAD record for the script is housed in, and changing that means nothing to the game.

 

Your only issue is going to come from removing the mod entirely from the game, at which point you have orphans galore and that's when the problems will start.

[HadToRegister]

 

You have a mod installed with scripts at mod index 2E

Everything in that mod now starts with 2E, , items, weapons, armor that the scripts access with a 2E prefix.

You sort the load order and now the mod sits at Mod Index 5F, now the scripts in the savegame that were accessing 2E, are left to fend for themselves, while the newly sorted mod starts accessing 5F.

You now have orphaned scripts still trying to find the 2E resources they were accessing because the mod was moved to a different place in the load order.

Nope. This isn't how things work in Skyrim and it never was. Scripts are keyed into the save by their filenames, not by their load order indexes. The only association that exists beyond that is what ESP file the VMAD record for the script is housed in, and changing that means nothing to the game.

 

Your only issue is going to come from removing the mod entirely from the game, at which point you have orphans galore and that's when the problems will start.

 

Well, I stand corrected.

Also, that's good to know, I can stop being so paranoid about my load order.

 

[Dark0ne]

So he's petty, and yet YOU respond this way? Uh huh. Deleting his posts because his valid argument rubs you wrong strikes me as the essence of pettiness. Subtly threatening to ban him over it is even more petty.

 

 

Subtly threatening to ban him? Bless. Oh Arthmoor, you really are the "essence of pettiness" :laugh: Nowhere did I do that.

 

You keep doing you, old chum! :laugh:

 

[Tannin42]

My input remains the same as it always has, manual drag & drop load ordering is the simplest system that exists and LOOT was actually built with using it in mind. The two are not mutually exclusive. There's a reason that even MO had that ability, and one wonders why Tannin is ignoring this during this whole argument. If he really thought it was such a terrible thing, he should have tried to change minds with MO itself. That he did not tells me even he concedes the feature has a valid purpose. Especially since MO also linked itself to the LOOT API for the same purpose Vortex uses it.

 

That's simply a lie, I've replied to that at least three times, you just choose to ignore my reply - probably because you know full well that I'm right.

The decision to go with rule-based ordering in Vortex was because of working on MO for years and getting the user feedback, not despite it.

 

So honestly I don't see it as the community's duty to convince him, he should be convincing the community that we've all been doing things the wrong way since Morrowind.

And this is polemic bs. I never said direct load ordering is wrong, I'm saying we can do better. And I don't have to convince users on the forum that what Vortex does is better, I'm convincing them by providing a tool that they can use for free so they can see for themselves whether they like it or not. When users give it a chance the may see the light - if they don't even give it a chance then that's their loss not ours.

 

You are certainly not acting that way, given your predetermined position that you would never consider adding the feature to start with. A lot of perfectly sound arguments in favor of it have been made, and we're still here 7 months later because you actually are not listening.

Well for one thing, I did add a ton of features and changes on user request - you of all people could know that I'm not a closed minded person.

I have considered the pros and cons of direct vs rule-based load ordering for a long time, way before I even joined Nexus Mods and yes, this obviously gives me a strong opinion on it.

But I also never made a secret out of the fact that I wouldn't change this unless a really good argument were brought forward that I didn't consider before.

 

Nope. This isn't how things work in Skyrim and it never was. Scripts are keyed into the save by their filenames, not by their load order indexes. The only association that exists beyond that is what ESP file the VMAD record for the script is housed in, and changing that means nothing to the game.

 

Your only issue is going to come from removing the mod entirely from the game, at which point you have orphans galore and that's when the problems will start.

 

I'm pretty sure I had a mod installed once that would remember a set of items (instances) based on their form ids, probably using skse and if you changed its load order position it would reset and everything was gone, but that was a single case in all the time I've been modding the game.

[sopmac45]

Did anybody ever suggested to Tannin to include rule-based ordering back when MO2 was created ? I do not think so.

 

Conclusion : now, we do have a rule-based ordering in Vortex, which is something not one expected ever and it is working like a charm. So I guess that unless somebody out there proves that dragging and dropping is way better than rule-based ordering, we will continue with what we have.

 

I am not missing dragging and dropping at all !